View source for Resolution talk:Wikimedia Foundation Guiding Principles/Archive 1

== Freedom and open source ==
"As an organization, we strive to use open source tools over proprietary ones, although we use proprietary or closed tools (such as software, operating systems, etc.) where there is currently no open-source tool that will effectively meet our needs." - Is there a requirement and process in place which forces people to publish an evaluation which open-source tools were considered and tested for a task in order to identify which specific functionality was only provided by closed-source tools? --[[User:AKlapper (WMF)|AKlapper (WMF)]] ([[User talk:AKlapper (WMF)|talk]]) 18:08, 19 March 2013 (UTC)
:
:Well, maybe that is my impression because I work remotely, but I've seen some proprietary files been shared and proprietary softwares being used when we could have free software. For instance, microsoft documents or apple softwares. And I've heard the wifi network in SF office works better with apple stuff, which is kind of weird - I've visited SF office only once and I checked that, but I've heard the same from other online meetings. For pragmatical reasons, sometimes I know using some closed softwares can deliver things faster tho. --[[User:Ezalvarenga|Ezalvarenga]] ([[User talk:Ezalvarenga|talk]]) 19:37, 19 March 2013 (UTC)
:I agree we could use a little more discipline on this.  e.g. I'm not ''convinced'' all Mac users in the office would truly be significantly less effective at their work on Ubuntu machines.  I do acknowledge some may be.  I think it warrants some nudging/pushing, though. [[User:Ijon|Asaf Bartov (WMF Grants)]] [[User_talk:Ijon|talk]] 20:28, 19 March 2013 (UTC)
::I think there's a huge distinction between closed source tools for personal productivity, and closed source tools for supporting the projects. This should be clarified in the text of the principles, because the current state of affairs is that we require FOSS when it comes to what is actually necessary for the projects to run, and we obviously don't when it comes to the office IT. <font style="font-family:Georgia, serif;">[[User:Steven (WMF)|Steven Walling (WMF)]]&nbsp;&bull;&nbsp;[[User talk:Steven (WMF)|<span style="color: #8080b0">talk</span>]]</font>  22:42, 19 March 2013 (UTC)
:::Thanks. In my initial posting I had shared tools in production (servers, webservices, etc.) in mind, but did not mean to refer to personal computers of individuals - that would be under the "personal freedom" category, and a published evaluation feels like overkill for such private cases. --[[User:AKlapper (WMF)|AKlapper (WMF)]] ([[User talk:AKlapper (WMF)|talk]]) 09:40, 20 March 2013 (UTC)
::::Hi, Aklapper, I don't have time today to make a longer comment, but for the personal freedom, if everybody begin to use closed formats, people who wants to use open formats will be forced to use also closed ones. If a person doesn't want to buy an apple computer, but the wifi network forces people to do so or make their lifes with other hardwares difficult, sorry, a serious policy about that should change. Yes, people can choose whatever they want on their personal computers, but if the majority is using what is fashion, a conscious minitority will not have freedom to choose what they want. As an example, I do use sometimes closed softwares, like skype, but only when really necessary, like a partner or co-worker that prefers to use it. And I know the pain it is sometimes to use only Linux since 1998. :) In Brazil, at least, in the government level, we are trying to [https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/thackday/WCmyz2jltF8/sKDd0xCPQaQJ BURN ALL THE DOCS]! There are also [https://groups.google.com/group/thackday/browse_thread/thread/4f94fbf09e4b6f54 bills] under way. ;D P. S. I could not even imagine close softwares on the server side. --[[User:Ezalvarenga|Ezalvarenga]] ([[User talk:Ezalvarenga|talk]]) 12:36, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

Responding to a couple of you here. No, AKlapper, AFAIK there is no formal documented requirement/process for evaluation of when the Wikimedia Foundation uses a proprietary tool instead of an open source one. To date we've been small enough, and had a sufficient proportion of the staff who're personally dedicated to open source values, such that evaluation has tended to happen informally on a case-by-case basis, and it's worked reasonably well. Like, we made an organizational commitment to use CiviCRM early and we've stuck with that, and similarly I know that Finance & Admin uses proprietary accounting tools because early on some research was done that determined there was no acceptable open-source tool. I think those were both reasonable outcomes. Over the years we've toyed with the idea of developing a formal evaluation policy, but we have not done it. If you're suggesting we should, I would generally agree, but I also wouldn't say it's the thing Office IT should prioritize as most important and most urgent.

More generally, in response to Ezalvarenga and Ijon, yes, I'd agree that our actual practices are likely imperfect -- there are probably some people at the Wikimedia Foundation using proprietary tools for individual use that could be replaced by open source tools. For example, I know that Legal has at some times used Microsoft Word for documents shared with external firms, when they probably could've insisted on using OpenOffice or LibreOffice without too much of a productivity hit.

Frankly, individuals using proprietary tools has been a pretty big pain point for the Wikimedia Foundation. It's understandable: individual staff have widely varying levels of personal commitment to FLOSS, people want to be effective at work and so they want to use the tools that support them best, and people's work, and their needs, vary. No-one wants to be told they have no choice but to use X, whether X is Ubuntu/Thunderbird/LibreOffice or IE/Outlook/Word. That's utterly reasonable. So it's complex, and we're not going to capture a lot of complexity in a short statement. 

StevenW had proposed we modify the language here to distinguish between site production tools and personal/individual tools. Can somebody propose language for that, and for anything else here that might need clarification or finetuning? Feel free to make a change and I'll revert it or finetune it if I feel I need to. Thanks [[User:Sue Gardner|Sue Gardner]] ([[User talk:Sue Gardner|talk]]) 18:35, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

: Related reading: [[FLOSS-Exchange]]. I think focusing on the ideal (and its rationale, which Erik sort of touched on with his "right to fork" [https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:Sue_Gardner/Wikimedia_Foundation_Guiding_Principles&diff=5334873&oldid=5334652 addition]), instead of what individuals might do, is a reasonable compromise. --[[User:MZMcBride|MZMcBride]] ([[User talk:MZMcBride|talk]]) 07:25, 21 March 2013 (UTC)

I think the line should be what's shared by the organization (or teams within the organization) and personal.  For anything shared, we should make it free software/open source unless it's really unworkable (and even then, we should always keep an eye out for moving to free software as it improves).  But if you want to use MS Word on your personal machine to write PHP that fully meets our coding conventions, more power to you ;).  This basically [https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:Sue_Gardner/Wikimedia_Foundation_Guiding_Principles&oldid=5335910#Freedom_and_open_source matches] the current text. But there are some cases where free software is workable for shared tools but we're not currently using them; as I said, we should try to change that. [[User:Superm401|Superm401]] | [[User_talk:Superm401|Talk]] 20:14, 21 March 2013 (UTC)

:Agreed with SteveW and others above that there's some distinction between what we share, what we use personally, and what we require others to use. Apple users in the office? Who cares, they're mostly running FOSS on top of Apple -- most of our ops folks and engineers live in a terminal and use standard Unix tools. Adobe Photoshop and proprietary-format files for graphics work? Maybe we do care, because you can't always use the PSD files without it. (I always advocate for SVG format for graphics, especially anything we intend to use in software or on sites that may need to be revisioned in the future.) Google Apps for email? Who cares, email is interoperable. Google Hangouts for video conferencing internally? Who cares? Google Hangouts for video conferencing including open community participation? Runs on Linux, but requires a proprietary plugin; not ideal but we accept it as the best compromise of several options for now. Maybe we care but we can live with it. etc. --[[User:Brion VIBBER|brion]] ([[User talk:Brion VIBBER|talk]]) 18:50, 22 March 2013 (UTC)

::So the text now reads like this: 

::''The Wikimedia Foundation is deeply rooted in the values of the free culture and free software movements. With the exception of "fair use" material, all information in Wikimedia projects can be freely shared, freely distributed, freely modified and freely used for any purpose, commercial or non-commercial, in perpetuity.''
::''All code written by the Wikimedia Foundation is licensed under an applicable open source license. We realize our obligations not just to share code, but to cultivate a healthy community of contributors around the source code, and to work with upstream projects and contribute back improvements to their code.''
::''All material in our projects is available in free formats that do not require the user to install proprietary software.''
::''Consistent with the above principles, we support the right of third parties to make and maintain licensing-compliant copies and forks of Wikimedia content and Wikimedia-developed code, regardless of motivation or purpose. While we are generally not able to directly assist such efforts, we enable them by making available copies of Wikimedia content in bulk, and avoiding critical dependencies on proprietary code or services for maintaining a largely functionally equivalent fork.''
::''As an organization, we strive to use open source tools over proprietary ones, although we use proprietary or closed tools (such as software, operating systems, etc.) where there is currently no open-source tool that will effectively meet our needs.''

::Does this work for everybody? I could add some language specifically around personal tool use, but I feel like "where there's no open-source tool that would effectively meet our needs" covers it. Like, you use Illustrator if Gimp isn't good enough for what you need. Let me know if anyone feels like this language isn't clear/accurate: otherwise I'll consider this thread resolved. Thanks [[User:Sue Gardner|Sue Gardner]] ([[User talk:Sue Gardner|talk]]) 21:48, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

::: As a very minor piece of word-smithing, I'd change "not able to directly assist such efforts" to "not able to individually assist such efforts" - we do directly help such efforts with data dumps and tools, we just don't have the resources to give human attention individually to such efforts. But yes, looks good to go otherwise. [[User:Jdforrester (WMF)|Jdforrester (WMF)]] ([[User talk:Jdforrester (WMF)|talk]]) 22:25, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
:::: Done -- thanks James :-) [[User:Sue Gardner|Sue Gardner]] ([[User talk:Sue Gardner|talk]]) 17:02, 2 April 2013 (UTC)

== Quick suggestion... ==

[https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=User%3ASue_Gardner%2FWikimedia_Foundation_Guiding_Principles&diff=5332950&oldid=5331958 ], which I made before seeing the request to comment first. Anyway, "serving every human being" seems a bit disingenuous, since we really aim to serve every literate human being with access to data and a digital device. ;-) The goal of providing equal access to all seems fairer, and more in line the the section's comments about well, accessibility. <font style="font-family:Georgia, serif;">[[User:Steven (WMF)|Steven Walling (WMF)]]&nbsp;&bull;&nbsp;[[User talk:Steven (WMF)|<span style="color: #8080b0">talk</span>]]</font>  00:26, 20 March 2013 (UTC)
:"equal access to all" is, er, equally disingenuous, as, by your own phrase, we're providing equal access only to "every literate human being with access to data and a digital device".
:Furthermore, I actually do think we ''strive'' to serve every human being.  Remember the free knowledge the Wikimedia community creates and shares is consumed offline too, not to mention the huge value of secondary use -- the knowledge worked into presentations, newspapers, books, radio and TV programs -- all consumed by hundreds of millions ''more'' than the group consuming it directly from our Web sites. [[User:Ijon|Asaf Bartov (WMF Grants)]] [[User_talk:Ijon|talk]] 00:50, 20 March 2013 (UTC)
::Yeah, I agree with Ijon. The language is "aims to" and "endeavours to," so I think it's appropriately framed as aspirational. [[User:Sue Gardner|Sue Gardner]] ([[User talk:Sue Gardner|talk]]) 18:37, 20 March 2013 (UTC)
:Actually, it's not quite that limited.  We do generally serve literate people, but there are actually readings of many articles (e.g. see [[:w:Template:Spoken Wikipedia|Template:Spoken Wikipedia]], I'm sure among others). There are also various mechanisms for printing Wikipedia (some in-house, some just people trying to make money by selling Wikipedia books), so you don't need a digital device.  The fact that we've consistently used fully free licenses for our content (except fair use extracts) has facilitated all of that. [[User:Superm401|Superm401]] | [[User_talk:Superm401|Talk]] 20:17, 21 March 2013 (UTC)
:Commons serves non-literate people indirectly. {{Smiley}} —[[User:Tom Morris|Tom Morris]] ([[User talk:Tom Morris|talk]]) 19:02, 30 March 2013 (UTC)

== Getting rich ==

On «nobody is getting rich by working at the Wikimedia Foundation»: define "rich". For instance, I'm a student but I'm very rich compared to most world population and richer than millions of Italians (so, when serving in my university board I raised tuition fees for myself/my income range). --[[User:Nemo_bis|Nemo]] 09:14, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

:Yeah obviously "getting rich" is relative. It's only when you compare [[:wiktionary:apples and oranges|apples to apples]] and look at other tech and nonprofit compensation schemes that you see what is meant. In any case, it's pretty awesome that we want to put that among our guiding principles, right? <font style="font-family:Georgia, serif;">[[User:Steven (WMF)|Steven Walling (WMF)]]&nbsp;&bull;&nbsp;[[User talk:Steven (WMF)|<span style="color: #8080b0">talk</span>]]</font>  18:38, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

:Edit conflict with StevenW! And yeah, Steven, I agree. I think the key word here is "getting." Nemo is correct of course that by world population standards, everybody who works at the Wikimedia Foundation is rich. But we were born rich, we did not "get" rich through our work at the Wikimedia Foundation. The point here is that working at the Wikimedia Foundation is not a path to dramatically improving one's personal wealth. Thanks. [[User:Sue Gardner|Sue Gardner]] ([[User talk:Sue Gardner|talk]]) 18:40, 20 March 2013 (UTC)
::I tend to see those negative statements ("'''not''' getting rich") as putting things in people's head that you don't want there in the first place. You say "not getting rich" (and I am on par with both Steven's and your interpretation on this) and all people seem to read/hear is "rich". Maybe we should try to find a positive statement for this? I'm kind of stuck though for a good one. "If you want to get rich, go work somewhere else"? -- ok, that one is stupid, but maybe you get my point? [[User:Notafish|notafish]] [[User talk:Notafish|}&lt;&#39;;&gt;]] 21:48, 20 March 2013 (UTC)
:::I suspected that the point was in ''getting'', however this is tricky. One may get "richer" by going to work in the WMF for career reasons, compared to the previous work (or country?), comparatively getting "poorer" than possible in some other place, however the latter is mostly impossible to prove. "Nobody is getting richer" would be clearer but is technically wrong.
:::Maybe: "we aim at level of income not being an important [the most important? one of the most important?] motivation[s] for someone to stay at the WMF", which implies there are different/contrasting motivations (presumably honest ;) ) without getting lost in defining which, and that income may be sacrificed. This is probably what is meant hear; no idea if it is positive enough as per notafish. --[[User:Nemo_bis|Nemo]] 00:15, 21 March 2013 (UTC) <small>P.s.: Steven, personally I don't care that much if someone gets rich at the WMF, as long as it's not by fleeing with the cash. :) I just like clarity.</small>
::::Seems a bit "off" for Sue Gardner to be commenting on "not getting rich" when her salary exceeds that of about 99% of American wage earners. -- [[Special:Contributions/2001:558:1400:10:456A:2BA3:C990:8D0A|2001:558:1400:10:456A:2BA3:C990:8D0A]] 18:46, 21 March 2013 (UTC)
I've just removed the phrase about getting rich. I think "fair but not lavish" covers it :-) Thanks [[User:Sue Gardner|Sue Gardner]] ([[User talk:Sue Gardner|talk]]) 22:00, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

==Reasonable travel costs==
«We aim to incur only reasonable travel costs: the general policy is to travel economy class and stay in moderately-priced hotels»: were $225K for staff (and board) at Wikimania reasonable? [[Talk:Wikimedia budget#Wikimania travel question]]. --[[User:Nemo_bis|Nemo]] 09:14, 20 March 2013 (UTC)
:How much is that per person sent to Wikimania that year? I think looking at the total for shock value is unfair. <font style="font-family:Georgia, serif;">[[User:Steven (WMF)|Steven Walling (WMF)]]&nbsp;&bull;&nbsp;[[User talk:Steven (WMF)|<span style="color: #8080b0">talk</span>]]</font>  18:39, 20 March 2013 (UTC)
::Nemo we're not making a commitment here to reduce travel costs, or to minimize travel. (I wouldn't want to do that: with a growing staff that operates as part of a global community that stages many international events such as Wikimania, the chapters' meeting and various hackathons, it strikes me that a focus on reducing travel costs would be a net negative not a net plus. I expect travel costs to be a not-insubstantial chunk of the Wikimedia Foundation budget: that seems eminently reasonable to me given the nature of our work.) The point here is simply that when we travel, we aim to do it moderately not luxuriously. The nuts-and-bolts of how we do that are captured in [http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Travel_policy the travel policy], but the purpose of this statement is simply to summarize the overall intent. Thanks [[User:Sue Gardner|Sue Gardner]] ([[User talk:Sue Gardner|talk]]) 18:47, 20 March 2013 (UTC)
:::So in short yes, you think it's reasonable. :) <small>I don't know if it was: while you do or can know all the details on the alternatives and other considerations, I can't judge — no opinion at all.</small> Given that "reasonable" conveys little, you may consider removing «to incur only reasonable travel costs: the general policy is » and leaving only the straightforward part of the statement.
:::Ideally (IMHO), we'd include some other criteria, like the impact:cost ratio (which you hinted to), usage of cheapest means of transportation, miscellaneous synergies (dumb example: double rooms instead of single where possible? and other more impactful stuff), with the disclaimer that all this must be applied fairly (see other section on benefits/reimbursements). I have no idea what are the current practices on all this so I don't know where to start, but I'm confident a compact form is possible. --[[User:Nemo_bis|Nemo]] 00:38, 21 March 2013 (UTC)
::::Hey Nemo, please see my comment in Title and Position (the next section down). Thanks [[User:Sue Gardner|Sue Gardner]] ([[User talk:Sue Gardner|talk]]) 17:29, 2 April 2013 (UTC)

==Title or position==
«People at the Wikimedia Foundation get the same benefits regardless of their title or position». 
*Who's "people"? Are you including all managers, trustees and employees?
*What's "benefits" and how do you measure if "salaries" are "fair"? Are you considering only accessories or also the actual wage, before or after taxes, pension contributions etc.?
*What are you including in "title or position" (or other comparison for "fair")? For instance, remote worker vs. office worker, full time vs. part time, staff vs. contractor.
--[[User:Nemo_bis|Nemo]] 09:14, 20 March 2013 (UTC)
:*Well, people does include at least all staff if you read further "regardless of their title or position". This should include everyone. As for Trustees, you've got a point, "people" is not clear and should probably be changed to "Staff" when it comes to benefits. I do not believe Trustees get benefits, even though they might benefit from insurance and related stuff when it comes to their work for the Foundation. It might make sense here to differentiate between staff/volunteers or something along those lines. [[User:Notafish|notafish]] [[User talk:Notafish|}&lt;&#39;;&gt;]] 14:34, 20 March 2013 (UTC)
:::To be clear: yes, the statement's intended to refer to all staff, and I can change the word "people" to "staff." There is detail available in the document [http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/foundation/2/2a/Wikimedia_Foundation_Compensation_Practices.pdf Wikimedia Foundation Compensation Practices]. And for Notafish, yes, the trustees don't get any benefits. Expenses they incur on behalf of the Wikimedia Foundation are reimbursed as per the policies, but they receive no compensation in the form of salary or other benefits. Thanks [[User:Sue Gardner|Sue Gardner]] ([[User talk:Sue Gardner|talk]]) 18:56, 20 March 2013 (UTC)
::::I think Staff makes sense in that context, thanks for clarifying. [[User:Notafish|notafish]] [[User talk:Notafish|}&lt;&#39;;&gt;]] 21:41, 20 March 2013 (UTC) <small>(Sue, it's '''n'''otafish, with a small '''n''', and I'm stupidly particular about it. If you want a capital, go with Delphine ;)</small>
:::::Thank you, Sue, this clarifies the first point: only two left in this section. :)
:::::On "benefits", the exact meaning of the word (or lexical equivalent) varies quite a lot across jurisdictions and fiscal systems, as far as I know, so it's not safe to assume everyone will get what you mean. I understand that reimbursements are a different matter, but it would be nice if they were fair and independent from title etc., too. (I suppose they already mostly are?) --[[User:Nemo_bis|Nemo]] 00:00, 21 March 2013 (UTC)
:::::: Yeah, in the U.S. "benefits" is generally understood not to include salary (people talk about "salary plus benefits") (it's basically everything ''but'' salary).  However, that might not be true in other countries/languages.  Also, the 401(k) maximum match is a fixed percentage of salary.  While the percentage is the same across position, the amount (n% × salary) technically is not.  However, it's true this is a fine distinction. [[User:Superm401|Superm401]] | [[User_talk:Superm401|Talk]] 20:28, 21 March 2013 (UTC)
*'Staff' is normally understood to mean Employees + Contractors, where contractors are afforded fewer benefits (if any at all). I'd suggest amending to specify 'Employees at...'. [[User:Okeyes (WMF)|Okeyes (WMF)]] ([[User talk:Okeyes (WMF)|talk]]) 23:23, 21 March 2013 (UTC)
**I'd kind of like us to provide fair benefits to all staff including international contractors, but of course jurisdictions make things.... difficult. --[[User:Brion VIBBER|brion]] ([[User talk:Brion VIBBER|talk]]) 19:01, 22 March 2013 (UTC)
::: As per Oliver and others, I changed "staff" to "employees" for clarity. I do wish the WMF could provide equivalent benefits to everyone regardless of their official status (i.e., staff versus contractor) but Brion is right, it's very complex. Having said that, I'm pleased we do provide additional benefits to all U.S. employees beyond what's provided by the state. In many/most countries, the state provides the basics: in the United States it does not, and so employer-provided health insurance is critical. [[User:Sue Gardner|Sue Gardner]] ([[User talk:Sue Gardner|talk]]) 17:14, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
:::: Okay I just rewrote this section. 

::::''We aim to be careful with donors' money. We pay salaries that are fair but not lavish, and provide reasonable benefits (e.g., health and dental insurance) that are the same for all employees regardless of their title or position. We aim to incur only reasonable travel costs, and to keep work-related entertainment costs moderate.'' 

::::Purpose of the rewrite is just clarity/simplicity. Nemo, rather than expanding the travel-related part with more detail I made it higher-level. [http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Travel_policy The full travel policy is here], and it's an official Board policy, so if it changes it would be updated on that page. Folks, let me know if aiming "to keep work-related entertainment costs moderate" is clear enough. Again, there is a [http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Duty_entertainment_guidelines_policy more detailed policy on this]. Thanks [[User:Sue Gardner|Sue Gardner]] ([[User talk:Sue Gardner|talk]]) 17:27, 2 April 2013 (UTC)

==Accountable==
«The Wikimedia Foundation wants to be accountable to [...]». Please clarify how the concept of accountability applies here: «responsible for your decisions or actions and expected to explain them when you are asked»[http://oald8.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/dictionary/accountable] (are there processes to be responsible of your actions in front of the readers, receive their questions and explain? etc.). --[[User:Nemo_bis|Nemo]] 09:14, 20 March 2013 (UTC)
:Sure, of course there are processes to be responsible to the readers of the projects. Reader surveys. User testing. OTRS. The blogs. The annual reports. The regular publication of activity reports, performance reports, financial statements. Social media. Engagement with charity watchdog groups. Public mailing lists. Bugzilla. Office hours on IRC. Events for donors. This page, and many other on-wiki consultations related to feature development, policy development, and so forth. There are probably lots I am forgetting :-) Thanks [[User:Sue Gardner|Sue Gardner]] ([[User talk:Sue Gardner|talk]]) 19:09, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

==Shared power==
This section seems entirely useless, in that it lists a lot of minor ephemeral details from the ''here and now'' and no actual "principles" that may "guide" any action. --[[User:Nemo_bis|Nemo]] 09:14, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

:The purpose of this section is to explicitly acknowledge that the Wikimedia Foundation works in partnership with a global community of volunteers -- that the Wikimedia Foundation is not the sole or even primary actor in fulfilling the Wikimedia mission, and that it needs to conduct itself accordingly, by creating mechanisms and processes enabling the community to have influence on its actions. Because we are interdependent partners. I think this is a pretty fundamental and important point to make, because in this regard we are different from practically everybody else. (What I mean by that: eBay and Facebook and Yelp may also have a social purpose or utility, but their primary purpose is to make money, and "community members" are a resource to be managed by the company to that end. In our case, the primary purpose of the movement is to make knowledge freely available to everyone around the world, and the Wikimedia Foundation and the global community of volunteers play different and complementary roles in achieving that shared goal.) So I wonder if that's not clear -- if my wording is just mucky. If so, can someone help propose better, more useful language? Thanks [[User:Sue Gardner|Sue Gardner]] ([[User talk:Sue Gardner|talk]])
:The shared power section does mention volunteer "developers".  However, I would like to see more emphasis on this.  Something like "The Wikimedia Foundation strives to continually increase its partnership with outside developers, project managers, and system adminstrators so we can technically improve the sites together".  This is an area where we've had some success, but more can definitely be done.  The reason I said "outside" not "volunteer" is that they may be paid to work on something like MediaWiki, just not paid ''by'' WMF.  The Apache Software Foundation is an example of an organization where many (not all) developers are paid (by various companies organizations), but they partner together to get things done. [[User:Superm401|Superm401]] | [[User_talk:Superm401|Talk]] 20:35, 21 March 2013 (UTC)

:: Hi Matt,

:: Sue asked me to help her add to the section, and I've made an effort to do so [https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:Sue_Gardner/Wikimedia_Foundation_Guiding_Principles&diff=5361354&oldid=5361335 here]. I think the "aligned with our interests" piece is an important qualifier.--[[User:Eloquence|Eloquence]] ([[User talk:Eloquence|talk]]) 21:35, 2 April 2013 (UTC)

==United States==
On «support successful job candidates in attaining the legal right to work in the United States»: why only USA? What if they want to move elsewhere? --[[User:Nemo_bis|Nemo]] 09:14, 20 March 2013 (UTC)
:Maybe this should become "...to work from a WMF office in the United States", in case that's what's meant here. --[[User:AKlapper (WMF)|AKlapper (WMF)]] ([[User talk:AKlapper (WMF)|talk]]) 09:44, 20 March 2013 (UTC)
::Or rather: Support succesful job candidates in attaining the legal right to work in the US should the need arise". Or something along those lines. [[User:Notafish|notafish]] [[User talk:Notafish|}&lt;&#39;;&gt;]] 14:36, 20 March 2013 (UTC)
:::Yeah -- you're correct, we also support remote workers when people don't want to relocate and the job doesn't require it. I will reword :-) [[User:Sue Gardner|Sue Gardner]] ([[User talk:Sue Gardner|talk]]) 19:21, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

::::Here's what I changed it too -- let me know if this is clearer. "We aim to recruit talented people regardless of where they live, and depending on their preferences and the needs of the job, we support them in working remotely or relocating to the United States." Thanks [[User:Sue Gardner|Sue Gardner]] ([[User talk:Sue Gardner|talk]]) 19:29, 20 March 2013 (UTC)
:::::Does the trick, as far as I'm concerned. :) [[User:Notafish|notafish]] [[User talk:Notafish|}&lt;&#39;;&gt;]] 21:42, 20 March 2013 (UTC)
::::::Yes, much clearer, thanks. 
::::::Ideally you'd be completely nation-neutral and support them in relocating to another country of their choice too, if suitable for them, and you could remove the "to the United States" bit. However, I understand this is an edge case. --[[User:Nemo_bis|Nemo]] 00:20, 21 March 2013 (UTC)
:::::::Relocations are done because the WMF feels the employee should be in-office. Up until we open an office somewhere else I can't imagine that spending donor funds moving people to a country 'because they want to live there' would be optimal. [[User:Okeyes (WMF)|Okeyes (WMF)]] ([[User talk:Okeyes (WMF)|talk]]) 23:24, 21 March 2013 (UTC)
::::::::Yeah, Oliver is right. We have once or twice had staff who wanted to relocate for personal reasons. We are okay with them doing it when it doesn't interfere with their work (like, if they are moving from one non-SF location to another non-SF location, or if they used to work from SF, want to move elsewhere, and working remotely wouldn't hurt their ability to do their work). But in those cases, when they are moving for personal reasons, the WMF wouldn't pay for the move, and wouldn't arrange or pay for any services related to the move, such as immigration-related legal fees. Thanks [[User:Sue Gardner|Sue Gardner]] ([[User talk:Sue Gardner|talk]]) 20:23, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
Just out of curiosity, does the WMF pay for the repatriation of employees once their employment ends? --[[User:Bdamokos|Bence]] ([[User talk:Bdamokos|talk]]) 11:51, 12 April 2013 (UTC)

==Serving every human being==
This section looks weird being 7 sections away from «Freedom and open source» with «All material in our projects is available in free formats that do not require the user to install proprietary software» etc. --[[User:Nemo_bis|Nemo]] 09:14, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

The emphasis on the development of new features is undue and likely to grate on both engineering staff and community, in my opinion. It is out of step with the custodian role which many individuals in both groups identify with. We should express a stronger commitment to high availability and site performance. --[[User:Ori.livneh|Ori.livneh]] ([[User talk:Ori.livneh|talk]]) 10:29, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

:Oh ha, Ori.livneh I think that's just clumsy wording on my part. I can see how it's easy to misread, but what you think I said is not what I meant to be saying. I'll revise. I'll also move this chunk up to be nearer to Freedom and Open Source. Thanks to you both [[User:Sue Gardner|Sue Gardner]] ([[User talk:Sue Gardner|talk]]) 19:31, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

:: Also, it talks about these being directed at "readers", and hoping to support them in starting to contribute - but we should probably also talk about supporting existing contributors. :-) [[User:Jdforrester (WMF)|Jdforrester (WMF)]] ([[User talk:Jdforrester (WMF)|talk]]) 20:11, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

::: On Sue's request, I've tried to address these points with [https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:Sue_Gardner/Wikimedia_Foundation_Guiding_Principles&diff=5334886&oldid=5334873 this edit].--[[User:Eloquence|Eloquence]] ([[User talk:Eloquence|talk]]) 23:13, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

:::: It's better (thanks, Sue, Erik, and James) but it's still not quite right, in my opinion: rather than rank engineering priorities (features, performance, availability) and then work backwards to explain the values that motivate them (access, participation), I think the section ought to lead with a statement of values, and then explain how our engineering priorities reflect our effort to realize these values maximally. --[[User:Ori.livneh|Ori.livneh]] ([[User talk:Ori.livneh|talk]]) 11:55, 21 March 2013 (UTC)

::::: Want to take a crack at drafting something on talk?--[[User:Eloquence|Eloquence]] ([[User talk:Eloquence|talk]]) 20:45, 21 March 2013 (UTC)

:::::: How about:
:::::: <div style="border:1px solid silver; background:#eee; margin:0.5em; padding:1em 2em;">The Wikimedia Foundation aims to make <span style="background: #d8ecff;">the</span> material in the Wikimedia projects broadly accessible to all. <span style="background: #d8ecff;">We work to enable for the world education from, entertainment by, and engagement with our projects' content, and participation in the communities and processes that create them.</span> Ensuring <span style="background: #d8ecff;">the</span> continued reliability, availability and responsiveness of all Wikimedia sites and services is our first priority. In prioritizing new products and features, our goal is to impact the largest-possible number of readers and contributors, and to eliminate barriers that could preclude people from accessing or contributing to our projects, such as poor usability, lack of language support, and limited access to technology. We endeavour to create the structural support and the necessary preconditions for bottom-up innovation by others. We do not form agreements in which one organization is given access to material or functionality that others are denied. Where possible, we aim to preserve and support frictionless use of the material in the projects, so that people can share it widely and easily.</div>
:::::: Thoughts? Please forgive the "power of threes" and running alliterations. :-) I worry that this section is now trying to say too much; possibly split after "technology"? I'm not particularly attached to my wording, so don't worry about offending. [[User:Jdforrester (WMF)|Jdforrester (WMF)]] ([[User talk:Jdforrester (WMF)|talk]]) 05:54, 22 March 2013 (UTC)

==Communication==
Do you think https://xkcd.com/802/ [https://xkcd.com/802_large/] applies to the WMF? (In particular, the proportions in the two maps on the top <s>right</s> left being zoomed.) --[[User:Nemo_bis|Nemo]] 09:14, 20 March 2013 (UTC)
:Nemo, could you clarify which proportions you refer to by naming them? Top right is "Unread Updates". --[[User:AKlapper (WMF)|AKlapper (WMF)]] ([[User talk:AKlapper (WMF)|talk]]) 09:46, 20 March 2013 (UTC)
::Ouch. I meant left, of course. :) Thanks, [[User:Nemo_bis|Nemo]] 09:56, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

==Right to fork==
Again nothing. [[Talk:Terms of use/Archives/2011-12-06#Right to Fork]]. --[[User:Nemo_bis|Nemo]] 09:14, 20 March 2013 (UTC)
* Probably more of a Wikimedia principle than a Wikimedia Foundation principle. Perhaps we need a separate list? :-)  --[[User:MZMcBride|MZMcBride]] ([[User talk:MZMcBride|talk]]) 09:22, 20 March 2013 (UTC)
*: I doubt it: «principles intended to guide the work of the Wikimedia Foundation». Who else do you suggest to task with ensuring the right to fork? --[[User:Nemo_bis|Nemo]] 09:29, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

::: Sue asked me to explore some language around this, so I've taken a first crack at it with [https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:Sue_Gardner/Wikimedia_Foundation_Guiding_Principles&diff=5334873&oldid=5334652 this edit].--[[User:Eloquence|Eloquence]] ([[User talk:Eloquence|talk]]) 23:01, 20 March 2013 (UTC)
:::: Thanks! Much better. I'll let the experts comment on the specific wording and if it covers all the essential (people would like to have something more than page history dumps, but what exactly is tricky). --[[User:Nemo_bis|Nemo]] 23:53, 20 March 2013 (UTC)
::::: If this idea is developed any further could someone ping me? I'm interested for obvious reasons.  Thanks. -- [[User:ArielGlenn|ArielGlenn]] ([[User talk:ArielGlenn|talk]]) 09:44, 27 March 2013 (UTC)

I think this is covered now by Erik's language, right? 

''Consistent with the above principles, we support the right of third parties to make and maintain licensing-compliant copies and forks of Wikimedia content and Wikimedia-developed code, regardless of motivation or purpose. While we are generally not able to individually assist such efforts, we enable them by making available copies of Wikimedia content in bulk, and avoiding critical dependencies on proprietary code or services for maintaining a largely functionally equivalent fork.''

Thanks [[User:Sue Gardner|Sue Gardner]] ([[User talk:Sue Gardner|talk]]) 20:25, 2 April 2013 (UTC)

== Internationalism ==

«''When we consider the community'' as a whole, we aim to consider all its languages and geographies and to avoid global initiatives that favor communities speaking only our languages» (emphasis added).
I note that you're only talking of how you consider the community; what about «initiatives that favor communities speaking only our languages» in general? For instance, roughly how much of the WMF spending goes on initiatives that favor only English-language people (projects, users etc., readers) or only the USA? --[[User:Nemo_bis|Nemo]] 09:36, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

== Right to influence ==

«Their work has earned [...] financial support sustaining the Wikimedia Foundation [...] and the global community has therefore earned the right to influence the work of the organizations»: it ''seems'' that you're stating that the only reason why someone has the "right to influence" the work is that they bring in dollars. --[[User:Nemo_bis|Nemo]] 09:55, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

Mm, Nemo, this is a good point. I was meaning to specifically talk about the financial aspect, but I realize from your comment that it reads wrong --- it *does* read like that's the only reason the community members matter, which is of course not true. I've taken a crack at rewording below, let me know what you think.

''These are the people who build the projects, and they have earned the right to influence the development of the platform, and the work of organizations that receive funding from the movement.''

Thanks [[User:Sue Gardner|Sue Gardner]] ([[User talk:Sue Gardner|talk]]) 20:32, 2 April 2013 (UTC)

== Transparency ==

This section says "including employee guidelines".  What happened to the public sharing of the [http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Employee_Handbook Employee Handbook]? -- [[Special:Contributions/2001:558:1400:10:456A:2BA3:C990:8D0A|2001:558:1400:10:456A:2BA3:C990:8D0A]] 18:49, 21 March 2013 (UTC)
: I asked about this recently. It doesn't really seem relevant to this kind of document, though. There's a thread on wikimedia-l, I think, if you want to follow up. :-)  --[[User:MZMcBride|MZMcBride]] ([[User talk:MZMcBride|talk]]) 21:10, 21 March 2013 (UTC)
:: It explicitly says "As a matter of general practice, unless there’s a particular reason not to, we aim to publish internal organizational policies and procedures, including employee guidelines, financial policies, etc."  I think it does belong here, because what the employees do is relevant, particularly to the donors who are essentially paying us. I agree the current reality around such employee procedures, etc. is not quite consistent with the document.  There is some stuff on Office Wiki (a private WMF wiki for employees) that does not need to be confidential. [[User:Superm401|Superm401]] | [[User_talk:Superm401|Talk]] 23:08, 21 March 2013 (UTC)
::: If only there were someone with access to both wikis with the technical know-how to move the pages. --[[User:MZMcBride|MZMcBride]] ([[User talk:MZMcBride|talk]]) 03:53, 22 March 2013 (UTC)
::::I'm pretty sure the staff handbook contains (amongst other things) access info to our healthcare providers, and other non-public information which should be stripped. I think that if someone did have the access and technical know-how to move the pages and acted on it, they'd swiftly find themselves losing the access ;p. As a general statement, the document ''should'' be moved over - but I imagine they want to get it finished and stable before combing through it to identify elements inappropriate for public consumption (otherwise you end up having to do multiple sweeps). [[User:Okeyes (WMF)|Okeyes (WMF)]] ([[User talk:Okeyes (WMF)|talk]]) 03:58, 22 March 2013 (UTC)
::::There are also sections which have been vetted by Legal and should not be open for editing by the public.  This is one of the problems.--[[User:Jorm (WMF)|Jorm (WMF)]] ([[User talk:Jorm (WMF)|talk]]) 23:44, 27 March 2013 (UTC)
::::: The legal team has no issue creating redacted PDFs. They just did for the [[NDA]]s. But they shouldn't be releasing documents in this way, of course. I've started some notes at [[legal docs]] for anyone interested. --[[User:MZMcBride|MZMcBride]] ([[User talk:MZMcBride|talk]]) 06:11, 28 March 2013 (UTC)

== Independence ==

"Skillsets" is not a proper word. -- [[Special:Contributions/2001:558:1400:10:456A:2BA3:C990:8D0A|2001:558:1400:10:456A:2BA3:C990:8D0A]] 18:57, 21 March 2013 (UTC)
: Context, "Similarly, our Board of Trustees selection process is designed to encourage representation of different voices and skillsets, rather than recognizing donors or celebrities."
: What would you recommend instead? "skill sets"? Something else? (This level of minor word tweaking you can really just do yourself, but I'm happy to proxy the edit for you from the talk page, if you'd like.) --[[User:MZMcBride|MZMcBride]] ([[User talk:MZMcBride|talk]]) 20:53, 21 March 2013 (UTC)

:: "Skillsets" is a reasonable word, but if the IP objects strenuously, we could use "sets of skills", which is rather po-faced. [[User:Jdforrester (WMF)|Jdforrester (WMF)]] ([[User talk:Jdforrester (WMF)|talk]]) 05:55, 22 March 2013 (UTC)
:::"Skillsets" is a perfectly cromulent word, even if my spell checker doesn't like it. If you're picky, write it as "skill sets". :) --[[User:Brion VIBBER|brion]] ([[User talk:Brion VIBBER|talk]]) 18:56, 22 March 2013 (UTC)

== Frictionless and copyleft ==

You might want to clarify this does not mean abandoning copyleft.  Though not all WMF wikis use copyleft, many do, and there is general understanding of its benefits.  I want to ensure people don't come later and start arguing that e.g. all new wikis should be non-copyleft to avoid "friction". [[User:Superm401|Superm401]] | [[User_talk:Superm401|Talk]] 23:12, 21 March 2013 (UTC)
:Surely by definition, 'avoiding friction in reuse' would be 'copyleft' - it's talking about freedom for others to reuse our work, not freedom for us to reuse the work of others. Which WMF wikis are non-copyleft? [[User:Okeyes (WMF)|Okeyes (WMF)]] ([[User talk:Okeyes (WMF)|talk]]) 04:00, 22 March 2013 (UTC)
:: Wikinews and Wikidata, for two. Copyleft licences are overly restrictive for wider re-use in some contexts. [[User:Jdforrester (WMF)|Jdforrester (WMF)]] ([[User talk:Jdforrester (WMF)|talk]]) 05:38, 22 March 2013 (UTC)
:::Aha, we're talking less- rather than more-restrictive; my mistake :). [[User:Okeyes (WMF)|Okeyes (WMF)]] ([[User talk:Okeyes (WMF)|talk]]) 05:40, 22 March 2013 (UTC)

== Duplicate of [[wmf:Values]]? ==

Hi. I wonder if these guiding principles aren't in some ways a duplicate of (or perhaps an update to) [[wmf:Values]]. What's the purpose of this document? Is it going to live alongside the [[wmf:mission|mission statement]], [[wmf:vision|vision statement]], etc.? Or will it end up being a Board resolution? Or something else? --[[User:MZMcBride|MZMcBride]] ([[User talk:MZMcBride|talk]]) 04:10, 22 March 2013 (UTC)
:It is similar, but more detailed than the values statement.  I think the guiding principles are pretty well done, and cover some additional ground.  It is worth considering if they could supersede the values statement, but there is some value in having a shorter document too.  The guiding principles draft says, "It is likely that these principles will be presented to the Board of Trustees for their approval, at a future Board meeting." [[User:Superm401|Superm401]] | [[User_talk:Superm401|Talk]] 16:16, 30 March 2013 (UTC)
::Yeah, Superm401 is correct. This document isn't intended to supersede the Values document. It's actually intended to flesh out the values a little bit further, so it's more explicit how we live them on a day-to-day basis at the staff level. A word like "independence," for example, is very subject to interpretation, and so the purpose here is to lay out how (e.g.,) the value "independence" manifests on a day-to-day basis, in practice, e.g., in the realm of fundraising, our commitment to open source, etc. Thanks. [[User:Sue Gardner|Sue Gardner]] ([[User talk:Sue Gardner|talk]]) 21:50, 7 April 2013 (UTC)

== Free formats ==

In re: ''All material in our projects is available in free formats that do not require the user to install proprietary software,'' can you clarify whether or not this is meant to mean that we will provide every file in free formats and thus not ''require'' the use of non-free software to view the file or does this mean that we will not provide the file in non-free formats at all?  There seems to be some contention both internally and externally surrounding the possibility of providing non-free formats. I, personally, full appreciate having available to me free-formats, but when all of my devices have hardware-accelerated H.264 decoding, I would prefer to save cpu cycles and my battery when watching videos from commons.  Similarly, there are some mobile devices that only support non-free formats and thus we currently do not support those users. -[[User:Pgehres (WMF)|Peter Gehres (WMF)]] ([[User talk:Pgehres (WMF)|talk]]) 05:20, 22 March 2013 (UTC)

:We're working on that issue with legal internally... I'm certainly trying to push advocacy for explicit support of multi-format stack as officially acceptable, and would prefer clearer language on this as well. --[[User:Brion VIBBER|brion]] ([[User talk:Brion VIBBER|talk]]) 18:52, 22 March 2013 (UTC)

== Quality ==

It strikes me that there is a glaring omission here. The current list of principles is a good set of ideologies, but surely the Wikimedia Foundation values high-quality content as much as it does the abstract principles like transparency and accountability. I understand that the Foundation does not generally (nor should) directly involve itself in the creation or judging of content on the projects, but certainly one of its core duties is encouraging or enabling the content creation, and one of the core implicit principles is that the content of the projects ought to be high-quality, comprehensive, authoritative, and so on (to the degree such quality descriptors are applicable to each project). To me, it seems like the omission of any principle that actually addresses the content of the projects is likely a matter of something being so obvious it didn't seem to need saying. I think it is important nonetheless, though. [[User:Dominic|Dominic]] ([[User talk:Dominic|talk]]) 06:50, 22 March 2013 (UTC)
: I agree. I think reiterating the [[wmf:mission statement|mission statement]] might be good here. (Related to the section above about [[wmf:values]], this page seems to be doing a bit of wheel reinvention....) --[[User:MZMcBride|MZMcBride]] ([[User talk:MZMcBride|talk]]) 06:55, 22 March 2013 (UTC)

== Ads? ==

Is being ad-free a guiding principle? Relatedly, is being neutral? --[[User:MZMcBride|MZMcBride]] ([[User talk:MZMcBride|talk]]) 07:53, 22 March 2013 (UTC)

:On the neutrality issue... that seems perhaps too WIkipedia-specific? Wikivoyage, for instance, has [[:wikivoyage:Wikivoyage:Be fair|no neutrality policy]]. It seems like being independent is really the principle here, related to being ad-free, and that actually extends to other things like not being reliant on a few major donors. <font style="font-family:Georgia, serif;">[[User:Steven (WMF)|Steven Walling (WMF)]]&nbsp;&bull;&nbsp;[[User talk:Steven (WMF)|<span style="color: #8080b0">talk</span>]]</font>  18:18, 22 March 2013 (UTC)

I think being ad-free is ''something we think is really great'', but the relevant guiding principle is indeed independence. --[[User:Brion VIBBER|brion]] ([[User talk:Brion VIBBER|talk]]) 18:54, 22 March 2013 (UTC)
:Mm, it's a little more than "really great"; Sue, Jimmy, and other board members have repeatedly stated for the record that Wikipedia will never show ads.  So it's not accurate to present this as merely a strong preference; it has long been a firm commitment.  (All this not to contradict that the principle here ''is'' independence rather than ''no ads''.) [[User:Ijon|Asaf Bartov (WMF Grants)]] [[User_talk:Ijon|talk]] 22:14, 22 March 2013 (UTC)
::IMO a commitment to not put ads on the site is more of a ''position'' than a ''principle''. We certainly don't advocate against advertisement culture the way we advocate for free speech and access to information. --[[User:Brion VIBBER|brion]] ([[User talk:Brion VIBBER|talk]]) 23:13, 22 March 2013 (UTC)
:::Agreed.  (your first comment did not acknowledge it was a committed position.) [[User:Ijon|Asaf Bartov (WMF Grants)]] [[User_talk:Ijon|talk]] 23:38, 22 March 2013 (UTC)
:::: Independence is the overall meta-principle, but ads come up ''so often'', even today, even after all the times we've said no. I think it's an artifact of our time and place and how every other internet service in the world gets funded, so I think it's worth focusing on ads specifically just to make the very clear point that: we are not the same as google, or facebook, etc. What we show people under our logos ''matters a lot'', and part of that is that no one can pay to control one square pixel of a Wikimedia project page. -- [[user:phoebe|phoebe]] | <small>[[user_talk:phoebe|talk]]</small> 00:05, 6 April 2013 (UTC)
:::::Hilarious that I omitted anything about ads, considering I am asked about literally on a weekly basis. Ridiculous oversight, I'm glad it's been caught :-)
:::::How about something like this (also now on the article page): 
:::::''Because the Wikimedia Foundation does not want to compromise the editorial integrity and independence of the projects, nor risk a perception that they have been compromised, we would be extremely reluctant to put advertising on the projects, or anything that might be perceived as advertising. We do not say that would never happen, because if it was a choice between shutting down the projects and accepting advertisements we would consider doing it, but we think it is highly unlikely to ever happen, and would only be considered in the gravest of circumstances.''
:::::Let me know what you think -- thanks [[User:Sue Gardner|Sue Gardner]] ([[User talk:Sue Gardner|talk]]) 21:55, 7 April 2013 (UTC)

== Free speech ==

"Another crack at alternative wording: We aim to balance appropriately between our goal of being active internationally and our desire to minimize legal risk to the projects."
:^ I worry this version doesn't actually say anything about being pro-free speech or making information available to everyone. One way to improve our international activity and lower our risk profile would be to censor information for certain countries to comply with local censorship or blasphemy laws, but I think we wouldn't consider that acceptable. --[[User:Brion VIBBER|brion]] ([[User talk:Brion VIBBER|talk]]) 19:10, 22 March 2013 (UTC)

::Gah, good point Brion. You're right, it could be misread as supporting/allowing censorship, which of course is the opposite of what it's supposed to say. Clumsy writing. (By me.) I'll delete it from the page.
::What about this version (copied from the article page): 
::''In making decisions, we will not allow censorship of our content as a means to facilitate other strategic goals: to the contrary, our strategic goal is to preserve content, and other initiatives must be consistent with that mission.''
::Personally I never like use of the word "content" so I might rather word it as "censorship of the projects" and "to preserve the material in the projects," but that aside, do we think this works? 
::Thanks [[User:Sue Gardner|Sue Gardner]] ([[User talk:Sue Gardner|talk]]) 21:17, 2 April 2013 (UTC)

== Thank you ==

I just checked this page because I had a free moment (I am in an all-day annual planning meeting) and I want to say thank you to everyone who's contributing here -- this is a really useful conversation. Some of the language folks are proposing is really helpful, and there are a couple of places where the comments show that the existing language isn't nearly as clear as I thought it was. So this is good. I'll come back sometime over the next week, but please meanwhile continue to develop new needed language through discussion here -- it's very, very helpful. [[User:Sue Gardner|Sue Gardner]] ([[User talk:Sue Gardner|talk]])

== Wikimedia Brasil Statement of Principles ==
Hi, I would like to suggest also the reading of the Statement of Principles made by the group of volunteers of Wikimedia in Brazil, in 2009, which has nice thoughts and can inspire a little those reading here:
* [[:br:chapter:Wikimedia:Statement of Principles|Wikimedia Brasil - Statement of Principles]]
I would like later, when I find time, to make comments on the internationalization section. --[[User:Ezalvarenga|Tom]] ([[User talk:Ezalvarenga|talk]]) 22:40, 25 March 2013 (UTC)

== Transparency: lack of IRS Form 990 ==

Hello,

The text mention we disclose the IRS form 990. The Financial page at http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Financial_reports only shows the 2010-2011 form, thus we are missing the 2011-2012 form which should have been filled last year. [[User:Hashar|Ashar Voultoiz]] ([[User talk:Hashar|talk]]) 11:41, 27 March 2013 (UTC)

:This isn't missing, just not there yet. :) The 2010-2011 form ([[:wmf:File:Form 990 - FY 10-11 - Public.pdf|here]]) was uploaded in May 2012. Previous years have been uploaded in [[:wmf::File:WMF 2009 2010 Form 990.pdf|April]], [[:wmf:File:WMF 2008 Form 990.pdf|May]], [[:wmf:File:WMF 2007 Form 990.pdf|May]] and [[:wmf:File:WMF 2006 Form 990.pdf|September]] of the year following the expiration of the fiscal year. Forms 990 are not due until the 15th day of the fifth month after the end of the fiscal year, with up to 180 days of extension if necessary. Last year's form 990 is still on schedule with previous years, and I'm sure it'll be uploaded sooner if ready. --[[User:Mdennis (WMF)|Maggie Dennis (WMF)]] ([[User talk:Mdennis (WMF)|talk]]) 14:38, 27 March 2013 (UTC)

== Entities ==

Thank you Sue for sharing and drafting this document in public! Reading the document – while understanding that it is aimed to describe current practice – I was a bit saddened to not see "movement entities" described in the context of partnership and cooperation in achieving the common goals. (There is some mention about giving movement entities money and freedom to do what they want, but I feel this does not live fully up to the [[mission]] statement, either in practice or at the level of principles.) –[[User:Bdamokos|Bence]] ([[User talk:Bdamokos|talk]]) 13:51, 28 March 2013 (UTC)

:Hi Bence. Yeah, I totally understand why you would say that -- it makes sense. I've just added this: "In addition to our work with individual volunteers, we work in collaboration with a network of chapter organizations and other Wikimedia movement entities, in our shared pursuit of the Wikimedia mission." Let me know if that works for you :-) Thanks [[User:Sue Gardner|Sue Gardner]] ([[User talk:Sue Gardner|talk]]) 00:58, 12 April 2013 (UTC)
::Thanks! --[[User:Bdamokos|Bence]] ([[User talk:Bdamokos|talk]]) 11:49, 12 April 2013 (UTC)

== "Regardless of their title or position" ==

"We aim to be careful with donors' money. We pay salaries that are fair but not lavish, and provide reasonable benefits (e.g., health and dental insurance) that are the same for all employees regardless of their title or position. We aim to incur only reasonable travel costs, and to keep work-related entertainment costs moderate."

Hi. Is this recent? Was this envisioned when people were planning the catalyst programs? What about benefits as laptops and mobiles, how is the policy of WMF defined regading this? Best, --[[User:Ezalvarenga|Tom]] ([[User talk:Ezalvarenga|talk]]) 18:39, 2 April 2013 (UTC)

== Finalizing the Guiding Principles soon ==

Hey folks -- just wanted to let you know I am going to be finalizing the Guiding Principles over the next day or two. (So, by the end of 13 April.) The discussion can still continue, but if there's anything in the actual wording of the text that you would still like to see fine-tuned, please say so, and please propose new wording, over the next two days. Thanks [[User:Sue Gardner|Sue Gardner]] ([[User talk:Sue Gardner|talk]]) 00:51, 12 April 2013 (UTC)