Policy talk:Privacy policy

Policy talk:Privacy policy/Header User:MiszaBot/config PrivacyPolicy-Invitation

Illustrations

There are obviously a lot of things to talk about and if you aren't interested in this piece of it please feel free to start a new section with your discussion point/question/concern/etc. As you can probably see both here and on some of the other policies and draft pages we rolled out we're trying the idea of having illustrations and light humor in the text. These are not in anyway 'set' and may not appear in the final version if they're not appreciated. Legal documents tend to be lengthy, weighty and difficult to read (and rarely read at that) especially when you consider how many sites the average user visits. We want to make these documents as accessible as possible to as many people as possible. We hope to keep everyone's attention with the illustrations and a bit of levity. This is especially the case in the privacy policy but we've seeded them in a couple other locations as well. Do you like them? Hate them? Any specific ones work well or not work well? Should we think about another scene for a specific area? Jalexander (talk) 01:50, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

I think the illustrations are a waste of screen space and the web page would be physically easier to read without them - eg I wouldn't need to scroll horizontally when reading in a narrow window.

The levity and humour in the text is unnecessary and possibly counter-productive. It's hard to take a policy seriously when it compares itself to "eating your greens". "Plain English" (instead of "legalese") is a very good thing, but making it too informal or "chatty":

• may create a perception that you don't really care at all - because you're joking about it.
• may create ambiguity or uncertainty because the less formal the language, the less precise it risks becoming.

The policy needs to be easy to read and factual; it does not need to be entertaining. Mitch Ames (talk) 06:55, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Yes, something like http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/2.0/ is perfect, but "funny" images are IMHO a poor idea.

Sorry but this "Hi, I'm Rory! I'm here to help explain this privacy policy. Welcome!" is terrible. It is straight from stupid commercial and/or something for a small children. Bulwersator (talk) 07:03, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Agrre with all of the above. Wikipedia (& Wikimedia) is not a children's book. -Nabla (talk) 09:06, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Gotta agree with Bulwesator & Nabla. Now if Rory were something with roots in the community (like Wikipe-Tan), I wouldn't be bothered hy this illustration half as much, however Rory is just some plush toy at the Foundation offices, giving the impression this is an initiative from the Foundation & foistering an us-vs.-them feeling to this proposed policy. (Yes, that is an issue that has been hammered ad nauseum, but presently there is a fair amount of distrust from the community about anything the Foundation does. Unforutnately clumsy stuff like this only aggrivates this distrust.) -- Llywrch (talk) 15:43, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

I personally enjoyed the illustrations and the style of speech as well. In my eyes this is a good way to encourage readers to study the whole document and not stop reading after the first paragraph. Besides that, horizontal scrolling should be prevented through better html. --trm 10:07, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Social security number

Perhaps the term "social security number" in the "A Little Background" section should be broadened to include non-US equivalents, as well as other material like driver license numbers or passport numbers? --Rschen7754 05:54, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Yes, good point. In fact, a 'social security' number is rather strictly an American thing. Driver's license numbers and passport numbers are universal. --Daydreamer302000 (talk) 08:44, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

I'd suggest "numbers on government-issued identification" and at some point add "credit card numbers" somewhere, as it's something that we oversight once or twice a month on enwiki. Risker (talk) 14:18, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Problem with the banner

The X on the banner does not seem to work. Nurg (talk) 06:19, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Thank you Nurg! I think I fixed it, it looks like the old standard it was using no longer worked. Please let me know if you have any other issues that is OBVIOUSLY not what we want (though I did start to think about some 'well we didn't want to give you a cookie' joke ;) ). Jalexander (talk) 06:28, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, that's good now. Nurg (talk) 09:03, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

A Little Background

Maybe hide it as default or move to the bottom? There is nothing here that would be surprising or interesting for normal person and on encountering it half people will stop reading this document Bulwersator (talk) 07:10, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Link to user page en:User:Ericsgrl4evah

Found on second paragraph in Privacy policy#Account Information & Registration. Is there any reason to have a link to a user page on policy page? – Kwj2772 (msg) 07:14, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Just as a note the specific account is a created 'example' (you can see a little comment/note in the edit window ). Jalexander (talk) 07:30, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Some points

• I expected Rory to actually say more stuff as the page went on. As it is, he is pretty useless.
• Under "More On What This Privacy Policy Doesn't Cover", the use of the phrase "are supposed to" implies that some stewards or checkusers might be able to get away without agreeing to follow the other policies. I suggest that you use "must" here instead.
• Under "Your Public Contributions", we have "Your contribution (even if you just removed something) will show when it was made and your username (if you are signed in) or your IP address (if you are not signed in)." While I think I get what this means, it still comes across as a bit ambiguous. Please recast this sentence so it is better structured and pronouns are used in a clearer way.
• Humor is fine, but a lot of this humor is quite bad humor :( Some examples:
  • "... the picture of you in that terrible outfit your mom forced you to wear when you were eight." It's just not funny.
  • Get rid of "ericsgrl4evah". The link is funny, but inappropriate and confusing. Or at the very least, go and full-protect her user and user talk pages on enwiki.
  • Under "Information We Collect", "While removing or disabling our locally stored data does not cause lasers to shoot out of your device" is silly, and could conceivably be taken literally.
• "the website you exited the Wikimedia Sites from". What is this? Surely you exit the Wikimedia Sites from the Wikimedia Sites themselves?
• JavaScript, please.
• Under "How Long Do We Keep Your Data?" the bit "such as your IP address if you edit while not logged in and any public contributions to the Wikimedia Sites." needs to be recast. Suggesting "such as your IP address (if you edit while not logged in) and any public contributions you make to the Wikimedia Sites."
• Link WikimediaAnnounce-L every time.

Nice work, though. This, that and the other (talk) 07:43, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

German translation and comments

Privacy policy/de (Where is this discussed?) Ich habe Probleme mit dem Text im Kasten Dies ist eine benutzerfreundliche Zusammenfassung der Datenschutzrichtlinie. Bevor ich groß herumeditiere, frage ich erstmal hier nach.

1. ) "Dies ist eine benutzerfreundliche Zusammenfassung der Datenschutzrichtlinie." —— falsch, der Text ist nur der Vorschlag hierfür
2. ) "Da wir der Ansicht sind, dass du nicht verpflichtet sein solltest,... alle Wikimedia-Seiten ohne Einrichtung eines Kontos lesen, bearbeiten oder nutzen." —— Ist das jetzt eine Änderung gegenüber altem Recht (nie wieder Benutzer- und Seitensperrungen?) Ich glaube kaum. Bitte verdeutlichen, was gemeint ist.
3. ) "Da wir verstehen wollen, wie Wikimedia-Seiten genutzt werden, ... erfassen wir einige Informationen, wenn du öffentliche Beiträge machst." —— Was ist ein öffentlicher Beitrag? Gemeint ist wohl jedeweder Beitrag bei Wikimedia ausgenommen E-Mails per Spezial:E-Mail_senden/USER. Bitte verdeutlichen, was gemeint ist.
4. ) "In dieser Datenschutzrichtlinie ... deine Daten niemals zu verkaufen oder sie für Marketingzwecke an Dritte weiterzugeben" —— Was ist mit der Weitergabe ohne Verkaufsabsicht und ohne Marketingzwecke? (ich meine hier nicht Wikimedia-Seitenverbesserung, Einhaltung von Gesetzen oder Nutzerschutz)
5. ) "Inhalte, die du einer Wikimedia-Seite hinzufügst oder Änderungen, die du an einer Wikimedia-Seite vornimmst, sind öffentlich und dauerhaft verfügbar." —— Wäre neu, ist mir aber unklar. Es sind heute nicht alle Beiträge dauerhaft verfügbar, es gibt Versionslöschungen, Artikellöschungen usw., es müßte kurz auf Ausnahmen hingewiesen werden (z.B. "mit Ausnahmen"). Der Zusatz "oder Änderungen, die du an einer Wikimedia-Seite vornimmst" ist redundant.

--Mattes (talk) 08:29, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

The whole translation seems to be a bit rough. There are many sentences which could be phrased less complicated. Where would be the best place to suggest such alternatives? --trm 10:10, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Hi, trm. :) If you press the "translate" tab on the German translation page, it will pull up the translation interface, where you will see the English and German side by side. Clicking on the paragraph in German that you want to edit will open an edit box for that paragraph. On one side, you will have the option to add suggestions. Alternatively, you can go ahead and just edit the paragraph if you're pretty confident in your alternative. Your help improving the translation would be welcome. More information on how to use the translation extension is here: mw:Help:Extension:Translate/Translation example. :)

However, it's fine to discuss proposed changes here, since the German translation talk page redirects here. --Maggie Dennis (WMF) (talk) 10:36, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

What is changing?

What is changing in the new Policy relative to the current one? Can anyone knowledgeable, probably those proposing it, make a diff please? - 09:08, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

+1

I have no big problem with this policy but knowing what's diferent helps to decide if it is 1 step forward or not. --Madlozoz (talk) 14:23, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Also agree that it would be useful to know the actual changes in the policy - it could be done as a chart in a subpage since I can't see how one could give a "diff". Risker (talk) 14:28, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Feedback

ça veux dire quoi en français ? Rinaldum (talk) 11:50, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Salut Rinaldum - Nous demandons la réaction des gens à la politique de protection des données proposée. Dans ce contexte, le mot «feedback» signifie "vos commentaires." Geoffbrigham (talk) 14:00, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Le ne connais pas de traduction parfaite de l'idiôme; en général, "commentaires en réaction" est une bonne approximation. MPelletier (WMF) (talk) 14:02, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

NSA, FISC, NSL, FISAAA, PRISM...

The WMF and many people with access to nonpublic information (like (for users with accounts) their IP addresses and possibly their email addresses) are subject to the contradictory laws of the USA. The WMF and many people with access to nonpublic information may be required to make such information available to unaccountable agencies while being legally restrained from telling them that the information was shared. Admitting new information sharing mechanisms, or even just the requests may result in imprisonment without trails, without access to the laws leading to imprisonment, or even transcripts of the decisions, evidence, or who their accusers were.

Until the WMF and people with access to nonpublic information remove themselves from such jurisdictions, the guarantees in the WMF's privacy policy, the access to nonpublic information policy, the data retention guidelines, the transparency report, and the requests for user information procedure, are untrue.

To service campaign contributors, your information may be given to third parties for marketing purposes.

Your data may be secretly retained by the WMF for as long as required by US agencies, and/or by those agencies themselves for as long as they want.

The WMF may be prevented from revealing their actual policies but forced to claim that they protect users' privacy per their public policies. -- Jeandré, 2013-09-04t12:47z

See also Talk:Privacy policy/Call for input (2013)#Technical and legal coercion aspects.

Delete account

It would be nice if the account can be removed. Thank You! --78.49.38.54 13:03, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Where to comment?

Content page invites one to comment but seemingly fails to tell one where to comment. Here? On this talk page? Somewhere else?

Presentation is rather "cutsie" reminds me of the annoying paper clip helper mess of Microsoft.--64.134.41.87 13:51, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Yes, please comment here for the privacy policy. We are definitely listening to feedback on the use of Rory (the tiger image). Veteran Wikimedians most likely need nothing like that. On the other hand, we want to facilitate reading the policy for everyone (including readers and new editors), so we are experimenting with the idea during this consultation period. Your feedback is greatly appreciated. Geoffbrigham (talk) 14:04, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

I just wanted to say that I love Rory's drawings, anyway :) --Elitre (WMF) (talk) 15:09, 4 September 2013 (UTC) PS - can I get a quick link to the colored version in the banner? I don't think I can find it on Commons, but I searched very quickly.

"You can...edit without registering an account"

This is in the first sentence of the nutshell of the draft, and is mentioned in several other places. However, if one tries to edit without logging in on English Wikipedia, at the top of the screen appears this editnotice: "You are not logged in. Your IP address will be publicly visible if you make any edits. Please log in or create an account to have your edits associated with a user name, among other benefits. "

The last sentence really pushes people to register accounts, and is written to sound as though it is pretty much required. It's something of a mixed message. If the last sentence started with "If you log in or create an account, your edits will be asociated...." it would more accurately reflect this policy, and to stay on the same message. Risker (talk) 14:36, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Hey Risker. I actually wrote that copy. :) I think the reword for the last sentence you suggested is good. Let's do it! Steven Walling (WMF) • talk 17:03, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

PRISM etc

Not sure if this is completely on topic, please point me towards the discussion if not, this is not my area of knowledge.

1. Is the Wikimedia Foundation subject to the same FISA laws that Microsoft, Google etc have had to comply with and give over information?
2. If so does the Wikimedia Foundation record anything they may want?
3. If so this privacy policy will need to reflect this.

--Mrjohncummings (talk) 16:06, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

CheckUser policy (2)

As already addressed here, let me reiterate my remark (that still remains) about the revelation of the link between an IP and an account, as it is a compound of private and public data.

Aside from this point, I am happy with the changes and the new layout of the page. Elfix 16:25, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Frankly my dear, I don't give a damn

Privacy is not the biggest concern for me when using Wikimedia pages, I'm more concerned about self proclaimed editors, I always thought you were free to edit and add to articles. However, something that has happened to me in the last month has made me change my mind about donating to Wikipedia and buy a printed encyclopedia instead, check this article discussion and all the changes that have been made in the last month. List of Virtual Console games for Wii (North America) If we can't edit, then lock the pages and let the editors to look at the comments in the talk pages, just stop saying is "free".

Bit of a sentence structure foible

This Privacy Policy does not cover some situations where we may gather or process information. Some may be covered by separate privacy policies (like the Wikimedia Shop) or sites or services run by third parties (like third-party developer projects on Wikimedia Labs). Learn more about other situations that are not covered by this Privacy Policy.

Either the parenthetical "(like the Wikimedia Shop)" was closed too early, or there's something significantly wrong with the adjacent clause "or sites or services...", because the situations won't be covered by sites or services - I think you mean to say something like ", or they may be sites or services run by third parties (...), which may not be subject to our policies."

Hope that helps! --MarkTraceur (talk) 16:47, 4 September 2013 (UTC)