Policy talk:Privacy policy

Policy talk:Privacy policy/Header User:MiszaBot/config PrivacyPolicy-Invitation

Privacy_policy/Navbox

Illustrations

There are obviously a lot of things to talk about and if you aren't interested in this piece of it please feel free to start a new section with your discussion point/question/concern/etc. As you can probably see both here and on some of the other policies and draft pages we rolled out we're trying the idea of having illustrations and light humor in the text. These are not in anyway 'set' and may not appear in the final version if they're not appreciated. Legal documents tend to be lengthy, weighty and difficult to read (and rarely read at that) especially when you consider how many sites the average user visits. We want to make these documents as accessible as possible to as many people as possible. We hope to keep everyone's attention with the illustrations and a bit of levity. This is especially the case in the privacy policy but we've seeded them in a couple other locations as well. Do you like them? Hate them? Any specific ones work well or not work well? Should we think about another scene for a specific area? Jalexander (talk) 01:50, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

I think the illustrations are a waste of screen space and the web page would be physically easier to read without them - eg I wouldn't need to scroll horizontally when reading in a narrow window.

The levity and humour in the text is unnecessary and possibly counter-productive. It's hard to take a policy seriously when it compares itself to "eating your greens". "Plain English" (instead of "legalese") is a very good thing, but making it too informal or "chatty":

• may create a perception that you don't really care at all - because you're joking about it.
• may create ambiguity or uncertainty because the less formal the language, the less precise it risks becoming.

The policy needs to be easy to read and factual; it does not need to be entertaining. Mitch Ames (talk) 06:55, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Yes, something like http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/2.0/ is perfect, but "funny" images are IMHO a poor idea.

Sorry but this "Hi, I'm Rory! I'm here to help explain this privacy policy. Welcome!" is terrible. It is straight from stupid commercial and/or something for a small children. Bulwersator (talk) 07:03, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Agrre with all of the above. Wikipedia (& Wikimedia) is not a children's book. -Nabla (talk) 09:06, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Gotta agree with Bulwesator & Nabla. Now if Rory were something with roots in the community (like Wikipe-Tan), I wouldn't be bothered hy this illustration half as much, however Rory is just some plush toy at the Foundation offices, giving the impression this is an initiative from the Foundation & foistering an us-vs.-them feeling to this proposed policy. (Yes, that is an issue that has been hammered ad nauseum, but presently there is a fair amount of distrust from the community about anything the Foundation does. Unforutnately clumsy stuff like this only aggrivates this distrust.) -- Llywrch (talk) 15:43, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

I personally enjoyed the illustrations and the style of speech as well. In my eyes this is a good way to encourage readers to study the whole document and not stop reading after the first paragraph. Besides that, horizontal scrolling should be prevented through better html. --trm 10:07, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

I also like the illustration too. Given that some of our contributors and readers are kids, we want them to know how it affects them. Plus, nobody (adults and kids alike) likes to read a text block of quasi-legal stuff. The illustration helps retain some of their attention while they read through the page. OhanaUnited^{Talk page} 18:36, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Look at the 2 things separately - Illustrations are fine, talking down like we're in kindergarten and we're being read a bedtime story, is probably not. I seriously doubt a lot of kids will be reading this quasi-legal, rather lengthy policy with things about metadata, subpoenas and access to nonpublic information policy etc.. With that said, It's actually a good idea to inject some levity in the mix with illustrations (I loved the kittens that used to be in other project and small cutesy things added here and there - but a mascot talking down might not be right for this audience). A little consideration for the audience would go a long way - I would suggest 'In a nutshell' blurbs accompanying the illustration would be more helpful - something like tl;dr version in 2-3 bullet-points. Hope that helps. Theo10011 (talk) 21:09, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Social security number

Perhaps the term "social security number" in the "A Little Background" section should be broadened to include non-US equivalents, as well as other material like driver license numbers or passport numbers? --Rschen7754 05:54, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Yes, good point. In fact, a 'social security' number is rather strictly an American thing. Driver's license numbers and passport numbers are universal. --Daydreamer302000 (talk) 08:44, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

I'd suggest "numbers on government-issued identification" and at some point add "credit card numbers" somewhere, as it's something that we oversight once or twice a month on enwiki. Risker (talk) 14:18, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Hi Rschen7754, Daydreamer30200, and Risker! These are excellent suggestions! We will definitely address this issue in the policy. Thank you for taking the time to give this feedback. Mpaulson (WMF) (talk) 18:14, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

 Done This has been changed on the english definitions draft here Jalexander (talk) 18:45, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Problem with the banner

The X on the banner does not seem to work. Nurg (talk) 06:19, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Thank you Nurg! I think I fixed it, it looks like the old standard it was using no longer worked. Please let me know if you have any other issues that is OBVIOUSLY not what we want (though I did start to think about some 'well we didn't want to give you a cookie' joke ;) ). Jalexander (talk) 06:28, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, that's good now. Nurg (talk) 09:03, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

A Little Background

Maybe hide it as default or move to the bottom? There is nothing here that would be surprising or interesting for normal person and on encountering it half people will stop reading this document Bulwersator (talk) 07:10, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Hi Bulwersator! Thank you for your suggestion! Hiding this section as a default is certainly an option if it seems that the majority of people already know this information, but moving it to the bottom probably wouldn't make organizational sense. What do other people think? Did the "A Little Background" section provide you with information you didn't already know? Should it remain as is or be changed to default hidden? Mpaulson (WMF) (talk) 18:42, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Link to user page en:User:Ericsgrl4evah

Found on second paragraph in Privacy policy#Account Information & Registration. Is there any reason to have a link to a user page on policy page? – Kwj2772 (msg) 07:14, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Just as a note the specific account is a created 'example' (you can see a little comment/note in the edit window ). Jalexander (talk) 07:30, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

I think the joke still works if you put a disclaimer right on the user page. Steven Walling (WMF) • talk 17:05, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Hi Steven and Kwj2772! We are contemplating possible changes based on this input, but want to wait to see what other comments we receive on this joke prior to making any changes. Mpaulson (WMF) (talk) 19:06, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

I don't think this joke translates well. PiRSquared17 (talk) 19:10, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Some points

• I expected Rory to actually say more stuff as the page went on. As it is, he is pretty useless.
• Under "More On What This Privacy Policy Doesn't Cover", the use of the phrase "are supposed to" implies that some stewards or checkusers might be able to get away without agreeing to follow the other policies. I suggest that you use "must" here instead.
• Under "Your Public Contributions", we have "Your contribution (even if you just removed something) will show when it was made and your username (if you are signed in) or your IP address (if you are not signed in)." While I think I get what this means, it still comes across as a bit ambiguous. Please recast this sentence so it is better structured and pronouns are used in a clearer way.
• Humor is fine, but a lot of this humor is quite bad humor :( Some examples:
  • "... the picture of you in that terrible outfit your mom forced you to wear when you were eight." It's just not funny.
  • Get rid of "ericsgrl4evah". The link is funny, but inappropriate and confusing. Or at the very least, go and full-protect her user and user talk pages on enwiki.
  • Under "Information We Collect", "While removing or disabling our locally stored data does not cause lasers to shoot out of your device" is silly, and could conceivably be taken literally.
• "the website you exited the Wikimedia Sites from". What is this? Surely you exit the Wikimedia Sites from the Wikimedia Sites themselves?
• JavaScript, please.
• Under "How Long Do We Keep Your Data?" the bit "such as your IP address if you edit while not logged in and any public contributions to the Wikimedia Sites." needs to be recast. Suggesting "such as your IP address (if you edit while not logged in) and any public contributions you make to the Wikimedia Sites."
• Link WikimediaAnnounce-L every time.

Nice work, though. This, that and the other (talk) 07:43, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

German translation and comments

Privacy policy/de (Where is this discussed?) Ich habe Probleme mit dem Text im Kasten Dies ist eine benutzerfreundliche Zusammenfassung der Datenschutzrichtlinie:

1. ) "Da wir der Ansicht sind, dass du nicht verpflichtet sein solltest,... alle Wikimedia-Seiten ohne Einrichtung eines Kontos lesen, bearbeiten oder nutzen." und (vor allem) "Inhalte, die du einer Wikimedia-Seite hinzufügst oder Änderungen, die du an einer Wikimedia-Seite vornimmst, sind öffentlich und dauerhaft verfügbar." —— Ist das jetzt eine Änderung gegenüber altem Recht (nie wieder Benutzer- und Seitensperrungen?) Ich glaube kaum. Bitte verdeutlichen, was gemeint ist.
2. ) "Da wir verstehen wollen, wie Wikimedia-Seiten genutzt werden, ... erfassen wir einige Informationen, wenn du öffentliche Beiträge machst." —— Was ist ein öffentlicher Beitrag? Gemeint ist wohl jedeweder Beitrag bei Wikimedia ausgenommen E-Mails per Spezial:E-Mail_senden/USER. Bitte verdeutlichen, was gemeint ist.
3. ) "In dieser Datenschutzrichtlinie ... deine Daten niemals zu verkaufen oder sie für Marketingzwecke an Dritte weiterzugeben" —— Was ist mit der Weitergabe ohne Verkaufsabsicht und ohne Marketingzwecke? (ich meine hier nicht Wikimedia-Seitenverbesserung, Einhaltung von Gesetzen oder Nutzerschutz)
4. ) "Inhalte, die du einer Wikimedia-Seite hinzufügst oder Änderungen, die du an einer Wikimedia-Seite vornimmst, sind öffentlich und dauerhaft verfügbar." —— Wäre neu, ist mir aber unklar. Es sind heute nicht alle Beiträge dauerhaft verfügbar, es gibt Versionslöschungen, Artikellöschungen usw., es müßte kurz auf Ausnahmen hingewiesen werden (z.B. "mit Ausnahmen"). Der Zusatz "oder Änderungen, die du an einer Wikimedia-Seite vornimmst" ist redundant.

--Mattes (talk) 08:29, 4 September 2013 (UTC), erg. --Mattes (talk) 22:28, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

The whole translation seems to be a bit rough. There are many sentences which could be phrased less complicated. Where would be the best place to suggest such alternatives? --trm 10:10, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Hi, trm. :) If you press the "translate" tab on the German translation page, it will pull up the translation interface, where you will see the English and German side by side. Clicking on the paragraph in German that you want to edit will open an edit box for that paragraph. On one side, you will have the option to add suggestions. Alternatively, you can go ahead and just edit the paragraph if you're pretty confident in your alternative. Your help improving the translation would be welcome. More information on how to use the translation extension is here: mw:Help:Extension:Translate/Translation example. :)

However, it's fine to discuss proposed changes here, since the German translation talk page redirects here. --Maggie Dennis (WMF) (talk) 10:36, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

What is changing?

What is changing in the new Policy relative to the current one? Can anyone knowledgeable, probably those proposing it, make a diff please? - 09:08, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

+1

I have no big problem with this policy but knowing what's diferent helps to decide if it is 1 step forward or not. --Madlozoz (talk) 14:23, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Also agree that it would be useful to know the actual changes in the policy - it could be done as a chart in a subpage since I can't see how one could give a "diff". Risker (talk) 14:28, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Feedback

ça veux dire quoi en français ? Rinaldum (talk) 11:50, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Salut Rinaldum - Nous demandons la réaction des gens à la politique de protection des données proposée. Dans ce contexte, le mot «feedback» signifie "vos commentaires." Geoffbrigham (talk) 14:00, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Le ne connais pas de traduction parfaite de l'idiôme; en général, "commentaires en réaction" est une bonne approximation. MPelletier (WMF) (talk) 14:02, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

NSA, FISC, NSL, FISAAA, PRISM...

The WMF and many people with access to nonpublic information (like (for users with accounts) their IP addresses and possibly their email addresses) are subject to the contradictory laws of the USA. The WMF and many people with access to nonpublic information may be required to make such information available to unaccountable agencies while being legally restrained from telling them that the information was shared. Admitting new information sharing mechanisms, or even just the requests may result in imprisonment without trails, without access to the laws leading to imprisonment, or even transcripts of the decisions, evidence, or who their accusers were.

Until the WMF and people with access to nonpublic information remove themselves from such jurisdictions, the guarantees in the WMF's privacy policy, the access to nonpublic information policy, the data retention guidelines, the transparency report, and the requests for user information procedure, are untrue.

To service campaign contributors, your information may be given to third parties for marketing purposes.

Your data may be secretly retained by the WMF for as long as required by US agencies, and/or by those agencies themselves for as long as they want.

The WMF may be prevented from revealing their actual policies but forced to claim that they protect users' privacy per their public policies. -- Jeandré, 2013-09-04t12:47z

See also Talk:Privacy policy/Call for input (2013)#Technical and legal coercion aspects.

Hi Jeandré, while I'm someone who knows for a fact that we would strongly rebel against secret requests and unreasonable demands from the government (any government) I'm certainly sympathetic to these concerns (I think much of what the US government has done is illegal and immoral). That said I have yet to see where we could 'go' to remove everyone from jurisdictions where this (or other equally bad issues) would be a problem. Europe, for example, is generally not better, it has significant issues as well. Jalexander (talk) 20:07, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Delete account

It would be nice if the account can be removed. Thank You! --78.49.38.54 13:03, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Sadly deleting an account is essentially impossible, if we delete an account then every edit made by that account isn't attributed to anyone and we can't allow that. Many wikis have a policy similar to English Wikipedia's Right to Vanish where you can be renamed to some obscure numbered name and your user page deleted but that's essentially the closest that we can get :(. Jalexander (talk) 20:11, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Where to comment?

Content page invites one to comment but seemingly fails to tell one where to comment. Here? On this talk page? Somewhere else?

Presentation is rather "cutsie" reminds me of the annoying paper clip helper mess of Microsoft.--64.134.41.87 13:51, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Yes, please comment here for the privacy policy. We are definitely listening to feedback on the use of Rory (the tiger image). Veteran Wikimedians most likely need nothing like that. On the other hand, we want to facilitate reading the policy for everyone (including readers and new editors), so we are experimenting with the idea during this consultation period. Your feedback is greatly appreciated. Geoffbrigham (talk) 14:04, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

I just wanted to say that I love Rory's drawings, anyway :) --Elitre (WMF) (talk) 15:09, 4 September 2013 (UTC) PS - can I get a quick link to the colored version in the banner? I don't think I can find it on Commons, but I searched very quickly.

@Elitre (WMF) and Elitre: wmf:File:Rory intro colored 02 banner transparent.png. See MediaWiki:Centralnotice-template-PrivacyPolicyDiscussion Rory1, Special:CentralNoticeBanners/edit/PrivacyPolicyDiscussion_Rory1 for more info on this banner. PiRSquared17 (talk) 19:03, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

"You can...edit without registering an account"

This is in the first sentence of the nutshell of the draft, and is mentioned in several other places. However, if one tries to edit without logging in on English Wikipedia, at the top of the screen appears this editnotice: "You are not logged in. Your IP address will be publicly visible if you make any edits. Please log in or create an account to have your edits associated with a user name, among other benefits. "

The last sentence really pushes people to register accounts, and is written to sound as though it is pretty much required. It's something of a mixed message. If the last sentence started with "If you log in or create an account, your edits will be asociated...." it would more accurately reflect this policy, and to stay on the same message. Risker (talk) 14:36, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Hey Risker. I actually wrote that copy. :) I think the reword for the last sentence you suggested is good. Let's do it! Steven Walling (WMF) • talk 17:03, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

PRISM etc

Not sure if this is completely on topic, please point me towards the discussion if not, this is not my area of knowledge.

1. Is the Wikimedia Foundation subject to the same FISA laws that Microsoft, Google etc have had to comply with and give over information?
2. If so does the Wikimedia Foundation record anything they may want?
3. If so this privacy policy will need to reflect this.

--Mrjohncummings (talk) 16:06, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

• Note that it may illegal for Foundation to admit that they give over information to USA government. 89.74.119.184 19:18, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

The WMF has been very clear that we have not been contacted in relation to that. General Counsel Geoff Brigham said in a blog post that "The Wikimedia Foundation has not received requests or legal orders to participate in PRISM, to comply with the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA), or to participate in or facilitate any secret intelligence surveillance program. We also have not “changed” our systems to make government surveillance easier, as the New York Times has claimed is the case for some service providers." Philippe (WMF) (talk) 20:58, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

CheckUser policy (2)

As already addressed here, let me reiterate my remark (that still remains) about the revelation of the link between an IP and an account, as it is a compound of private and public data.

Aside from this point, I am happy with the changes and the new layout of the page. Elfix 16:25, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Frankly my dear, I don't give a damn

Privacy is not the biggest concern for me when using Wikimedia pages, I'm more concerned about self proclaimed editors, I always thought you were free to edit and add to articles. However, something that has happened to me in the last month has made me change my mind about donating to Wikipedia and buy a printed encyclopedia instead, check this article discussion and all the changes that have been made in the last month. List of Virtual Console games for Wii (North America) If we can't edit, then lock the pages and let the editors to look at the comments in the talk pages, just stop saying is "free".

Bit of a sentence structure foible

This Privacy Policy does not cover some situations where we may gather or process information. Some may be covered by separate privacy policies (like the Wikimedia Shop) or sites or services run by third parties (like third-party developer projects on Wikimedia Labs). Learn more about other situations that are not covered by this Privacy Policy.

Either the parenthetical "(like the Wikimedia Shop)" was closed too early, or there's something significantly wrong with the adjacent clause "or sites or services...", because the situations won't be covered by sites or services - I think you mean to say something like ", or they may be sites or services run by third parties (...), which may not be subject to our policies."

Hope that helps! --MarkTraceur (talk) 16:47, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Sorry but the german Wiki has a big Problem with Privacy policy - the german WIKI internal IP and USER Filter -

Benutzer Seewolf ist hauptverantwortlicher Bearbeiteter der nicht für die Öffentlichkeit einsehbaren privaten Bearbeitungs- UND IP-FILTER

und er war tätig bei Wikimedia Deutschland e.V. -

See more at: http://shtoink.de/category/machtstrukturen-wikipedia/page/3

Öffentliche Filter: 50

Für die Öffentlichkeit oder Wikipedia Community nicht einsehbare Filter: 75

Filterbearbeiter: Hauptnutzer und Bearbeiter der Filter sind die Benutzer Lustiger seth (32 Filter) und Seewolf (55 Filter).

Benutzer Lustiger seth bearbeitet vor allem öffentlich einsehbare Filter bearbeitet (25 Filter)

Die öffentlich nicht kontrollierten Filter sind die Domäne des Benutzers Seewolf (44 Filter)

Personenbezogene Filter: 32

Nahezu alle privat. Oft werden bei personenbezogenen Filtern dabei in der Wikipedia einzelne Artikel, die Wikipedia Funktionsseiten und Benutzerseiten für ganze IP-Bereiche gesperrt.

Die Benennung “Personenbezogener Filter ist insofern missverständlich; das am häufigsten benutzte IP Erkennungsmuster deckt maximal 65534 potentielle Benutzer ab.

Der Kollateralschaden – Sperrungen Unbeteiligter – kann also beträchtlich sein.

- See more at: http://shtoink.de/category/machtstrukturen-wikipedia/page/3/#sthash.tfGrmO5Y.dpuf

german User:Seewolf is mainly responsible Worked the non-accessible
to the public and private processing filters.
He worked he at Wikimedia Germany eV -
See more at: http://shtoink.de/category/machtstrukturen-wikipedia/page/3

1. #Public filters: 50

For the public, or Wikipedia community non-visible filters: 75

Filter Editor:

primary users and the user agent of the filter are Funny seth (32 filters) and

german User:Seewolf (55 filters). Funny edit user seth mainly publicly available filter processes (25 filters)

The public is not controlled filters are the domain of the user german User:Seewolf (44 Filters)

2. Personal filter: 32 Almost all private.

Often in personal filters are employed in the individual Wikipedia articles that feature disabled Wikipedia pages and user pages for entire IP ranges.

The term "Person-specific filter is so far misleading, the most commonly used IP detection pattern covers more than 65,534 potential users.

The collateral damage - innocent bystander closures - can therefore be considerable.

Thanks

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.24.61.140 (talk • contribs) 20:27, 4 September 2013

Pretty nonsense here. -jkb- 22:43, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

The language tends to be condescending

Really! Truly! I know you don't mean to sound like you are talking down to us, but gosh, I feel like everyone at the Foundation just wants to give us happy smiles & hugs & wishes us all unicorn farts. Not only does it sounds creepy, yo ulose all credibility.

First, I want to know if this warm-&-fuzzy language accurately reflects what the policy is. And some passages don't give me a warm & fuzzy feeling that it does.

Second, it is possible to explain things in plain English without sounding like a demented variant of a Cub Scout Den Leader. Take, for example the section "Account Information & registration". (Was the person who wrote that high on antidepressants?) Everything in that section could be explained quite simply & maturely as follows:

You are not required to create an account to read or contribute to a Wikimedia Site. However, if you contribute without signing in, your contribution will be publicly attributed to the IP address associated with your device. If you want to create a standard account, we do not require you to submit any personal information to do so. All that is required is a username and a password. We do not ask for a legal name or date of birth, nor an email address, and definitely not for credit card information; we consider that information unnecessary to contribute to Wikipedia. There are rules and considerations regarding a username, so please think carefully before you use your real name as your username. Your password is only used to verify that the account is yours.

Notice how more mature this paragraph reads? Yet most of the language is what currently appears on the front page; all I did was take out the fluff. And there is a lot more fluff in this policy statement that needs to come out before the final draft. -- Llywrch (talk) 18:34, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Data retention

I think some clarification on the data retention policy would be helpful : in the section of the draft on "How Long Do We Keep Your Data", there is a link ("(Check out our list of examples") to what can be "retained indefinitely". The link sends to a page with the following statement : "You can learn more about how long we keep different types of data in our data retention guidelines and procedures [LINK]", where the link is void. Also, today's post on the Foundation's blog says : "In the coming months, we will also be releasing Data Retention Guidelines ... which [will] address many of the most prominent concerns we heard during the initial consultation period [and] explain our data collection and retention practices under the new Privacy Policy in greater detail". Does this mean the data retention policy is to be clarified here and now or later ? Is the current data retention policy to be replaced by another document ? Is there a difference made between "guidelines" and "policy" ? Will a draft on these matters be submitted later to the community ? Thanks, — Racconish^Tk 18:51, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

The German Wiki has also the internal Data retention ;(((

Blog not hosted by WordPress?

blog.wikimedia.org runs the WordPress software, but I'm pretty sure it actually isn't hosted by WordPress. I just spoke with Brion in #wikimedia-tech who said that he's pretty sure the blog is hosted on one of the WMF's servers. Legoktm (talk) 19:19, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

So I checked with the ops folks in private chat; apparently there's some talk about switching the blog to WordPress's hosted servers, but it hasn't been done yet. (Main reason to move it is that it's a pain for the ops people to keep one extra web service up, running, up to date, and tuned for occasional high-traffic spikes, while WordPress.com does that for a living.) But yeah, the text should be .... current with actual practice I suppose! --brion (talk) 19:23, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

The blog is planned to move to third-party hosting pretty soon, probably this month, as part a general redesign of the blog. I understand the new privacy policy won't go live before 2014. Regards, Tbayer (WMF) (talk) 19:51, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

I don't like this new policy

I don't like this new policy. It needs to be changed.

Please elaborate. Which part do you believe should be changed specifically, and why? PiRSquared17 (talk) 20:45, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Collection of "unique device identification numbers"

MOVED FROM WIKIPEDIA VILLAGE PUMP

Hi, at http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Privacy_policy/BannerTestA, it says:

Because of how browsers work and similar to other major websites, we receive some information automatically when you visit the Wikimedia Sites. This information includes the type of device you are using (possibly including unique device identification numbers), the type and version of your browser, your browser’s language preference, the type and version of your device’s operating system, in some cases the name of your internet service provider or mobile carrier, the website that referred you to the Wikimedia Sites and the website you exited the Wikimedia Sites from, which pages you request and visit, and the date and time of each request you make to the Wikimedia Sites.

What sort of "unique device identification numbers" is it referring to? I thought browsers didn't provide that information. 86.169.185.183 (talk) 17:40, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Looking at similar privacy policies, it looks like this may refer to mobile devices: "AFID, Android ID, IMEI, UDID". --  Gadget850 ^talk 17:45, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

You mean that when you access a website through a browser on an Android device the website can collect a unique device ID? Is that really correct? (I can believe it for general apps, where, presumably the app can do "anything" within permissions, but I didn't think there was any such browser-website mechanism). 86.169.185.183 (talk) 18:58, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

I think this question is more appropriate for the Talk page discussion on the privacy policy draft. Steven Walling (WMF) • talk 20:31, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Traduction

Euh... Ca veut dire quoi, feedback ? Si vous traduisez, s'il vous plaît, essayez de le faire correctement ! 78.251.246.17 20:52, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Bonjour ! Le mot "feedback" veut dire "commentaires en réaction". Voir aussi : #Feedback, wikt:fr:feedback#Anglais. Cdlt, PiRSquared17 (talk) 20:56, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Merci :-) 78.251.246.17 22:42, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

"the website you exited the Wikimedia Sites from"

"This information includes [...] the website that referred you to the Wikimedia Sites and the website you exited the Wikimedia Sites from"

"the website you exited the Wikimedia Sites from" is hard to understand. Does it mean that when you click an external link the identity of the referring page is sent to the external website? 86.169.185.183 20:53, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

It seems trivial but does sound clumsy. It can be rephrased. Theo10011 (talk) 21:21, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Policy Enforcement for Labs

The policy states that "This Privacy Policy does not apply to all of the Wikimedia Sites, such as Wikimedia Sites that have their own privacy policy (like the Wikimedia Shop) or third-party actions and sites (like third-party developer projects on Wikimedia Labs)." What happens when we include code from Labs or Toolserver into standard pages (for example GeoHack; there is no indication that it might be under a different policy) -- how do we ensure compliance to the policy for those included snippets? Or how do we clearly mark on our projects that a tool is external? Mwalker (WMF) (talk) 20:58, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

A bit painful

With due respect, some of the phrasing is pretty cringe-worthy.

"Some features we offer are way cooler to use if we know what area you are in."

"If you choose to help us make the Wikimedia Sites better by participating in an optional survey or providing feedback, we think you are awesome."

"We also recognize that some of you know the ins and outs of tracking pixels while others associate the term “cookie” exclusively with the chocolate variety."

Such attempts to be chatty have no place in such a document, in my opinion. 86.169.185.183 21:02, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Mostly, I'd be interested in tasting a cookie which is a chocolate variety (in Italian, saying that "cioccolato" is "biscotto" is a lexical and etymological absurd). Do such things really exist in USA? We may need a food culture table conversion for such weirdnesses in the text. --Nemo 21:47, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

You will be assimilated. Resistance is futile... We are Wikiborg.Oaktree b (talk) 22:23, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Terminology

"Wikimedia Sites"

Why this terminology? I'd appreciate consistency. Terms of use talks of Projects and Wikimedia Projects. --Nemo 21:08, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

+1. Theo10011 (talk) 21:22, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

“the Wikimedia Foundation” / “the Foundation” / “WMF” / “we” / “us” / “our”

Instead of providing glossaries, can't you just use a single term? --Nemo 21:10, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

"update your account profile", "information in your user profile"

What is this thing or things the text talks about? Never heard of profiles on our wikis. --Nemo 21:19, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Actually, +1 on all 3. Consistency is very important in vetted documents like these that will be around for a long while. Theo10011 (talk) 21:25, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Exclusion of on-wiki actions from privacy policy

Can someone explain what purpose it serves to have a two-tiers privacy protection in which WMF doesn't guarantee much, or anything, about what in the end might happen with private data on the wikis? In particular the exclusion of "data-collecting tools that are placed on Wikimedia Sites by users, volunteer administrators, or other third parties" means that we (WMF and community) could no longer just remove any tracking script from the wikis on sight as being against the privacy policy. --Nemo 21:15, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Registration and "demographic information about yourself"

Makes no sense, please kill. --Nemo 21:21, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

What about that makes no sense? It seems straightforward to me. Registration data, and demographic data about yourself. Philippe (WMF) (talk) 21:26, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

So you're saying that the users can delete registration data? Please tell me how. Is it a new feature that will be developed? --Nemo 21:32, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

I'm actually curious what demographic data is and where it is extracted from. There is no demographic data as far as I know besides gender info in the preference options, and even that isn't disclosed half the times. Also, did we add an option to disclose age at some point or is there more analytic data being extracted from elsewhere besides the preference option? Maybe I missed something. Theo10011 (talk) 21:34, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Gender preference is not demographic data, it's grammatical information. --Nemo 21:44, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

I thought so too. But "we may ask you for more demographic information about yourself, such as gender or age." - seems to imply not. What exactly is the demographic data here then? Theo10011 (talk) 21:46, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Gender preference certainly is grammatical information as well but there is no getting away from the fact that it is also demographic data (and that people don't always like it being known for varied reasons). Jalexander (talk) 21:56, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

James, is that all the demographic data is that is being referred to? I actually would like a clearer explanation if that kind of info is only pulled from the preference options or somewhere else and what other kind of info is there? Thanks. Theo10011 (talk) 22:00, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

So, what is the purpose of all this?

I've read the draft from beginning to end, and I have no idea what you wanted me as a user to get from it. What's the purpose, what does it improve compared to the much shorter and more concise current policy which provides very clear and straightforward protections such as the four (4) magic words «Sampled raw log data» (see also #Data retention above)? Is the purpose just adding tracking pixels and cookies for everyone, handwashing (see section above) and generally reducing privacy commitments for whatever reason? --Nemo 21:31, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

The existing policy

You know, I'm all in favour of revisiting the Privacy policy. But we do have an existing privacy policy, and there isn't even a link to it on the page titled "Privacy policy". I am quite certain this is an oversight, and that a Meta administrator can fix this. (Yes, I know the links at the bottom of the page go to the current version on wmf wiki. But if I search for "Privacy policy" here on Meta, I'm being taken to the draft.) Risker (talk) 21:36, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

That's a very good point. I'm fixing. Philippe (WMF) (talk) 21:45, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Done with this edit. Philippe (WMF) (talk) 21:49, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Umm, not good enough. It should be a separate bolded line that says the same thing you just posted in the box, and should not be in the box itself. It took me four tries to find it without clicking your link here. Suggested wording: CLICK HERE to read the current Privacy policy (with the link at "click here"). Risker (talk) 21:54, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

"Click here" is language that's not recommended to be used anywhere, for usability reasons. Steven Walling (WMF) • talk 23:41, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Informal tone

I'm wondering why the WMF has decided to use a very informal tone in this new draft. Is it intended to make the policy appeal to a younger audience? I have nothing against the occasional use of "cool", "awesome", or similar words, but I don't understand why they should be in what is essentially a legal document. @Jalexander: any comment? PiRSquared17 (talk) 21:59, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

I also think it's okay to have a bit of fun and have some in-jokes in internal Wikimedia pages, but it might hurt the WMF's reputation if added to such an important, highly visible document. However, I trust the authors of the document. PiRSquared17 (talk) 22:01, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Also informal text can have official character. ;) The intention was obviously to make the text comprehensible also for non-Legalese native speakers. ^^ --თოგო ^(D) 22:36, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

I'm happy that it is more comprehensible and written in Simple/Plain English, but that does not mean we should have text like "[...]we think you are awesome". I'm not explicitly against this kind of informal tone, but I'm afraid that readers may get a bad impression of Wikimedia. It might make WP seem like a website run by "cool kids". ;) PiRSquared17 (talk) 22:41, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Subject to US law

I think we should expand the section on the data being kept in the USA, and therefore subject to American laws. The PATRIOT Act comes to mind, where they can and will use any data you store in the US at any point in time against you at a later date. Doesn't matter where you live. So you might not want to post that nasty anti-American rant on a talk page, it might come back to bite you in the choo-choo later... Or the DMCA. I think of a certain Russian computer scientist who could have been arrested had he came to the US to give a speach as he posted information on anti-circumvention measures (Dmitry Sklyarov) ... Oaktree b (talk) 22:09, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Oatmeal vs. Dora the explorer

I saw feedback to the whole illustration and mascot theme is solicited above. I wanted to point out the subtle difference being lost here. Illustrations don't necessarily have to be dumbed down, or be intended for an immature audience. The whole mascot theme, terminology and tone being employed doesn't fit well together. I'm not commenting on the quality of the artwork or the character work for the record, both of which seem fine and probably took a lot of time and effort. It's really hard to cater to an adult audience through this medium but it's not new either - twitter fail whale, firefox fox, google's android etc. all have used their mascots and used them well - I think this could be done better (if this route is going to be taken). But to do that - start by aiming for oatmeal, not Dora or Disney. Regards. Theo10011 (talk) 22:33, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Localisation des serveurs aux Etats-Unis et loi applicable

Les explications indiquent que les serveurs sont situés aux Etats-Unis et que nous devons accepter que ce soit la loi américaine de protection des données personnelles qui s'applique, même si elle est moins protectrice que la nôtre, et que dans le cas contraire nous ne devons pas utiliser Wikipédia. Ca veut dire que nous devons nous barrer tout de suite ? De toutes façons, je ne crois pas que ce soit légal. La Wikipédia francophone concernant en grande partie des Français (ainsi que des Québécois, Belges, Africains, Suisses, etc.), je pense que les juridictions des publics concernés ont leur mot à dire, et que leurs lois doivent d'appliquer. La jurisprudence n'est pas encore bien établie, mais d'ores et déjà certains décisions judiciaires sont allées dans ce sens. En tous cas, personnellement, je ne suis pas du tout d'accord pour donner mon consentement à ce que ce soit la loi américaine qui s'applique. Bien trop dangereux ! La loi américaine n'est pas assez protectrice ! Sans parler de toutes ces lois liberticides prises à la suite des attentats du 11 septembre, sans grand contre-pouvoir pour contrôler leur mise en oeuvre ! 78.251.246.17 22:55, 4 September 2013 (UTC)