Policy talk:Universal Code of Conduct

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Revision as of 07:49, 29 November 2019 by Nemo bis (talk | contribs) (→‎What on earth: +re)

Redundant with Terms of Use?

How'd this not be redundant with Section 4 of the Terms of Use on refraining from certain activities (and behaviours)? —MarcoAurelio (talk) 20:19, 30 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@MarcoAurelio:Thank you for your comment. Section 4 of Wikimedia Terms of Use does cover some behavioural guidelines along with content guidelines such as copyright infringement and paid contributions, however it is not a comprehensive list. It is very open to interpretation and not often applied as a guideline on wiki. The Universal Code of Conduct aims to help communities actually apply the section 4 of the Wikimedia Terms of Use by spelling out in more detail, what is covered by them and more focussed conduct guidelines. --NNair (WMF) (talk) 17:26, 1 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Would it not be more efficient to rewrite Section 4 to be more of a "Projects should have rules that enforce [x], support [y], etc..."? Vermont (talk) 17:44, 1 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Vermont: Hi Vermont, interesting point. Any changes to the TOU will have to be approved by the legal team, and we’ll be working with them as this process progresses. A difficulty there is that the section might get lengthy, as language could drift towards legalese. Having a readable and concise TOU is important, so it might be best that the TOU references the UCoC rather than having it live there in full. We’ll let them know about this suggestion, and get their opinions on it.--NNair (WMF) (talk) 06:02, 4 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Having a readable and concise UCoC is similarly important. I would hope that your vision for a UCoC is one that is more of a basis for how local conduct policies should look, rather than an attempt at removing all local conduct policies and replacing it with a global, English, UCoC.Vermont (talk) 10:12, 4 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
^ Very much this. I hope WMF realizes that if they try to force a code of conduct that is written by themselves on the entire community, it will not go well. The community should really be taking the initiative on this matter. --Rschen7754 17:57, 4 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
This is a good direction I think. Similarly to how the Foundation put out a resolution that all projects should adopt a local policy that upholds basic principles with regard to living persons. GMGtalk 12:30, 6 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Template:Rto The contents to be expected in the CoC are in big part already existing conduct policies and guidelines throughout the projects. However these rules are scattered, and hard to find, therefore unknown to many editors. I've spent the greater part of ca. two months to discover the policies and guidelines of enwiki, and I still find new essays and explanations to the rules. A CoC wouldn't impose rules much different from the already existing ones, and there was no mention of any local policies being replaced. The point of an UCoC is to collect in one place the basic conduct guidelines, in a "readable and concise" format, thus old and new users alike can read it and be aware of it. The awareness of these rules will possibly help the communities to call out and address conduct issues even before those escalate to sanctions, and also make us more mindful of our conduct. —Aron Man.🍂 hist🌾 18:53, 26 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The TOU were written by, and belong to, the community. Even if changes also require Legal's approval, one can't make substantial changes to it without the community's consent. --Yair rand (talk) 17:08, 6 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The BLP framework is something we have been looking at. It is definitely an applicable approach. Similarly, the UCoC is aiming to come up with a basic, minimum standard for behavioural guidelines, and the idea emphasizes the fact that projects with strong guidelines must be able to abide by and uphold their respective local behavioural policies. In terms of process, the Foundation aims to facilitate the process but the whole project exceedingly depends on the feedback and ideas from the community. We’re working on a more detailed outline/timeline for conversations that we’ll post here. --NNair (WMF) (talk) 03:01, 14 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Already rejected

If nearly 50 editors randomly come across a proposal to ban the WMF from doing something, and every single one of them supports preventing the WMF from doing that thing, the WMF should probably not do that thing. If you try to push for it anyways, we will have a crisis on our hands, and anyone trying to do any productive work will despair as we yet again need hundreds of volunteers to try to stop the WMF from causing yet another catastrophe. --Yair rand (talk) 17:09, 6 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Most of the open-source communities have adapted a Code-of-Conduct in recent years, with success. They had their own, difficult debates. Wikipedia is far behind these communities, in terms of civility, openness, constructive debate, and cooperation. The introduction of a CoC is a step forward, by discouraging unwholesome behaviors, that's so common in our online interactions. It is understandable, however, that some people, who haven't experienced the benefits of a CoC in a project, have fears about the application of new rules. I'm sure, after some time most of these people will find, that being mindful of our conduct, and following a CoC creates a more healthy community, where contributing is a more uplifting experience. — Aron M (talk) 17:32, 26 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Aron M: Could you provide links to a few examples that of such CoCs in other online communities? Thanks, Nsk92 (talk) 17:22, 22 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The problem many perceive is not that the community might be healthier with a CoC, but that this initiative is coming from the "T&S team", who (by contract) are required to represent the interests of the WMF above all other considerations. Simply 'managing' the input from experienced volunteers who are actually the community that a CoC will be applied to, is not the same thing as seeing the WMF buy in to limiting their own behaviours as part of agreeing a volunteer driven, volunteer agreed, CoC.

The 100% supported vote linked above was for the board should create "terms of use" that the foundation has to comply with in their dealings with the communities. If WMF employees, contractors and board members were to start there, rather than engaging in an expensive programme of managing stakeholders in order to force a WMF view of the world on everyone else, that would be a super starting point that the community could be reassured about. Amongst other advantages it provides the starting principles for community governance of actions such as the undocumented and un-appeal-able global blocks of long standing unpaid project volunteers by anonymous WMF employees and contractors who have access to the WMF Office account. Not that this is an argument against WMF T&S taking "probably" justifiable actions, just that the community is way, way, overdue for a better governance process of WMF T&S that visibly respects our community shared values of transparency and openness.

Thanks --Fæ (talk) 18:51, 26 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Wikimedia LGBT+ meeting minutes October 2019

Team LGBT+ discussed this proposal in its October meeting. The Wiki LGBT+ community has discussed conduct and misconduct in almost all of its meetings over the past few years and considers itself as a major stakeholder in any broad-reaching conduct proposal. Blue Rasberry (talk) 20:06, 8 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Hi User:Bluerasberry, thanks for showing up and letting us know about your discussions! We are aware that such discussions are happening in different places and are hoping to gather the input from them in the upcoming consultation about the Universal Code of Conduct. Actually we kickstarted some of those conversations with our session at Wikimania and we are trying start more of them. So we are definitely looking forward to hearing about your ideas and experiences! --CSteigenberger (WMF) (talk) 09:36, 11 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Are we having a session about this in Boston next month? GMGtalk 12:12, 13 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Hello @GreenMeansGo: @Bluerasberry:I'll be at WikiConference North America next month and will be available to have one on one meetings, and also to participate in an unconference session, too, about the UCoC. SPoore (WMF) Strategist, Community health initiative (talk) 16:31, 21 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@SPoore (WMF): I will be at that event and see you then and there. I will take notes and report back to Wiki LGBT+. Blue Rasberry (talk) 17:12, 21 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

What on earth

has the preamble of Constitution of India got to do with Universal values of Wikimedia communities? Winged Blades of Godric (talk) 14:41, 18 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Hi both, thanks for the feedback on the collage; we can look at some of the images for improvement.
@Winged Blades of Godric: The constitution of a democratic country represents people’s voices, people’s representation, and togetherness in diversity. It’s one thing that binds every citizen of a country together irrespective of their differences and cultural values. This aptly resonates with the concept of unity and universal values in our movement. Then why not include a picture of the preamble of the constitution of not only the biggest democracy but also the most culturally diverse country in the world to signify those values? With this picture, I was definitely not focussing on the ‘socialist’ part, but perhaps this one can replace the one that’s already there.
@Risker: I hear your concerns about the history of the Chiang Kai-shek square. I chose it because of how this square holds a sentimental significance for Taiwan as it is now the place where democracy is celebrated, rather than Chiang Kai-shek himself. But I can see how it could be read as divisive in terms of Chinese history.
If you have suggestions for new images, let me know. Best,--NNair (WMF) (talk) 04:57, 20 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
See this map. No, India is not culturally tolerant. In general, I don't really see the point of promotional images for a UCoC, but if you really want one please use uncontroversial and globally relatable images. Vermont (talk) 10:15, 20 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with WBG, Risker and Vermont, and I'm concerned with the direction this is taking. —MarcoAurelio (talk) 12:21, 20 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with WBG, Risker, Vermont and MarcoAurelio. To avoid repetition, my lengthy thoughts on the crass insensitivity of the particular images chosen, the impracticality of trying to illustrate "universal values" with any kind of photograph, and the impossibility of a meaningful code of conduct without enforcing cultural imperialism of some kind, are on my en-wiki talk page. Iridescent (talk) 13:19, 20 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Hi all, thank you for the inputs about the image. Please do note that the picture in question here is not the final representation of UCoC. And as I said earlier, we can look at more images for improvement. For that do share your suggestions about other pictures that in your view, better represent the values of the movement and are least controversial. I am looking forward to formulating something that’s widely accepted. --NNair (WMF) (talk) 07:13, 21 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
NNair, are you Chickenwings10? Vermont (talk) 10:46, 21 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
It's in the shape of a cross. There's really no image or set of images that accurately represent world values without offending someone, because there isn't a set of values shared globally that I think would accurately reflect the UCoC. Vermont (talk) 20:15, 22 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I mean, it is (or at least has become) the quintessential secular ethical code. That this manuscript is shaped like a cross is historical accident. GMGtalk 21:28, 22 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The cross shape may be an accident, our choosing it would not be, nor could we expect it to be perceived as an accident. WereSpielChequers (talk) 21:50, 22 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
We're getting somewhat off-topic, but the cross shape is definitely not an accident but an intentional attempt to express continuity between Ancient Greek culture and Byzantine Orthodox Christianity. If we (a) need a CoC and (b) need an image to illustrate (both of which I—along with as far as I can tell virtually everyone not on the WMF payroll—strongly dispute), than I agree that it's a total no-brainer that religious imagery, national symbols, anything pertaining to political issues, or anything that a reasonable person could possibly interpret as such, are totally unacceptable. It's by design, not accident, that the logo of every WMF project is utterly bland.Iridescent (talk) 23:33, 22 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
If you want to allude to the Hippocratic Oath, there are other images available, such as this one. -- Llywrch (talk) 23:19, 22 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
But again, we're back to subconscious cultural bias. The entire concept of medical oaths, let alone the Hippocratic Oath in particular, is specific to particular cultures; in much of Africa, for instance, the entire concept is unknown, and even in the West there are relatively few jurisdictions where any form of oath is mandatory rather than voluntary. (Quick RS.) Finding common cultural reference points which have the same meaning to all readers on a global project really is harder than it looks.Iridescent (talk) 23:42, 22 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I mean, as far as I am aware, the Hippocratic Oath has been endorsed and updated by the World Health Organization. But regardless, all this is probably just a distraction, and having any image at all is probably not remotely worth this level of debate. Something something en:BIKE. GMGtalk 13:03, 23 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Getting severely off the point, but I think you're misremembering. The WHO is a UN project and would never try to enforce a US-specific concept like medical oaths, as it would provoke a global scandal. The (unrelated) World Medical Association, an international trade body for medical professionals, regularly suggests proposed codes of ethics (I assume the Declaration of Geneva is what you're thinking of), but none of them have any particularly wide acceptance. Even in the US, only about 75% of doctors take any kind of oath; if you tried to suggest to medical students at (e.g.) Cambridge University that they should be forced to swear an oath, they'd laugh in your face and politely escort you from the medical school.Iridescent (talk) 15:39, 23 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Admittedly completely off topic banter at this point, but ... uhh ... [1] ... And how is a two thousand year old Greek oath a "US-specific concept"? And yes, oaths in general are an archaic concept that are rarely used, but I'm pretty sure we got that bit of tradition you you guys being a former colony an all. GMGtalk 17:43, 24 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The difficulties of finding a suitable image may be a distraction, or they may be themselves a symbol of how it's not possible to have a "universal" one-size-fits-all approach to all cultures in the world. Nemo 07:49, 29 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
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