User talk:FeralOink
This is my user talk page.
Wikimedia Image Deletion 2010
This Q&A regarding several dozen images deleted from Wikimedia Commons should be migrated to Meta.
My larger concern is how the events of May 2010 were represented in The Signpost of 20 February 2023, in the section, Editorial: The loss of the moral high ground.
The following is excerpted from an unpublished Signpost entry in 2006 or perhaps 2010.
... our image host, Wikimedia Commons, is not censored. That it could cause offense was not sufficient to remove an image. Amongst those advocating for this view was Jimbo Wales. He cited his free speech advocacy, and stated that "we can not deviate from our goals in order to accommodate governments who would force censorship of Wikipedia."
However, the current petition comes after we have lost some of the moral authority we once had. Jimbo Wales, out of fear of a media attack, led by Fox News, about allegations of pornography on Wikipedia, instituted a massive deletion of content from Commons, including many examples of artwork by notable artists. On being challenged about this deletion. Wales wrote:
He also deleted
several works by major artists... and numerous line art illustrations used to illustrate articles on sexual content. Only long after these deletions were done did he state his reasons:It wasn't even effective: Fox News shortly thereafter posted an article attacking Wikipedia. If Wikipedia is going to sacrifice its moral high ground and neutrality – for saying that things offensive to Fox News are worth mass deletion sprees including historic artwork, but that the complaints of Muslims are not, is highly non-neutral – we should not sell ourselves cheap. We recently did, and only the effective loss of all Jimbo Wales' powers over his actions leaves us any moral high ground at all. This petition is much harder to deal with, as we have shown that, yes, we will give into pressure – but only if it comes from our mainstream Western culture.
This is the commentary in the current, 20 Feb 2023 Signpost, retrospectively.
- Looking back at this from 2023, it's hard to say what was learned: after Jimbo gave up most of his founder privileges, the matter kind of just... died out. Most of the images deleted were restored, though, unfortunately, deleting images means they get removed from articles, so whether all the article usages ever got dealt with is very unclear.
- I guess everyone just decided we should pretend all of this never happened?
- I honestly think these events were important to Wikipedia's history, though: This was when WP:NOTCENSORED got tested. He even edit-warred to try and keep images deleted. Had Jimbo won out, years of saying that images of Muhammad shouldn't be censored would have blown up in our faces. Because Jimbo made us lose the high ground, but the hundreds of people who fought against him regained it.
I reviewed the content and links in The Signpost. I commented as follows:
- Jimmy Wales deleting art works (fearing Fox News criticism) lacks important details. Why was Jimbo concerned? On 27April2010, Fox reported that Larry Sanger told the FBI that Wikipedia was distributing porn via WMF servers. Fox reported on 7May2010 that WMF had initiated mass deletions of pornographic materials of children on its sites, Commons and otherwise. In the Fox News 10May2010 article cited by The Signpost, Larry Sanger said he reported a Category “Nude Children” and PHOTOS of naked children to the FBI. Fox says there were NOT graphic photos of children, only drawings. The drawings included, via Fox 10May2010:
"...original illustrations of children engaged in sexual acts... Sanger referred to an early 20th century colored illustration of a young girl performing oral sex on a much older man. Its caption reads: “If Mom returns? She'll tell you that it's very rude to talk with your mouth full." The image is accessible via Wikipedia's article on "Pedophilia," at the bottom of which is an image with a link directing readers: "Wikimedia Commons has media related to Pedophilia.” The link takes you to a page that contains 25 to 30 explicit and detailed drawings of children performing sexual acts. In a May 6 2010 discussion, Wales spoke specifically about the above image and others in the “pedophilia” and “zoophilia” categories (the latter includes illustrations of children engaged in sex acts with animals)."
- Jimmy waffled a bit which, given circumstances and time frame, doesn't seem to detract from taking moral high ground. First, Jimmy said he would delete the Nude Children Commons category, then reversed his opinion to keep. 4 hours later, he decided to delete "for lack of educational value". A law professor consulted by Fox said, "With respect to child pornography, the real harm is in the production of it -- not the fact that it's also socially irredeemable." A lawyer who prosecutes child abuse cases disagreed.
- Did the FBI pursued a case against WMF?
- Were the child bestiality and pederasty drawings deleted from Commons or just from Wiki articles?
- Why did The Signpost omit Jimbo's focus on the removal of child porn and child bestiality content from WMF servers? He wasn't merely expunging artworks depicting nude adults or naked youth in non-sexual contexts.
This was the response by the 20 Feb 2023 Signpost author.
:There is a very good reason: As far as I can tell None of the works Jimbo deleted in 2010 had anything to do with children or animals.. Here is a list of every file Jimbo deleted. If you can spot a single child or bestiality image in there...
- FeralOink, Basically, there's literally zero evidence he deleted a single image on grounds that it was illegal. I don't think we have the works Sanger commented on anymore - but that has nothing to do with Wales' deletion spree. It's hard to check now - and I'm not sure I'd want to - but I believe all such images were deleted long before Wales began his attack on adult sexuality.
The response makes no sense. The only reason for the deletions were to remove the Nude Children category and Child Bestiality. The Fox News article is dated May 2010. Jimmy Wales made his artwork deletions from Wikimedia Commons in May 2010.
I reviewed the deletions. There are about 50 of them. Most are still extant. Those that were deleted are NOT artworks, given the titles of the image files. I see no artwork. Well, not at the link provided by The Signpost. The list of files that Jimbo deleted contains little or no artwork. What am I missing here?--FeralOink (talk) 01:10, 21 February 2023 (UTC)